MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[greenday5494]

since valve is too chicken to play PC gamers, they think that the console players never heard of TF2/TF!! they are going to play on Friday....
link:
http://kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/be...s-2-311385.php
im going to ask them a BUNCH of questions (since i have the Box for the 360, my PC sucks, but i still play on it )
also, im going to ask them to play the FF devs in a tounrey, one with TF2 with the FF devs vs. the TF2 devs, and the FF devs vs. the TF2 devs in Fortress Forever.
got any questions for them?

[Circuitous]

Take ValveProg4 down.

[Johnny Mullet]

Who shot who in the what now?

[Spiderm4N]

ask why tf2 dont have nades :B

[Bakez]

Ask whether they actually researched the TFC 'scene'. Did it just pass them by that during TFC's heyday there were almost two completely separate communities? A clan style community, and a skills community who are much like freestylers in football or basketball - competing against eachother in the individual skills rather than the overall game. Ask why they decided to take all these skills out, and in turn put no new ones in at all to accomodate the many hundreds (if not thousands of players) who had been members of various conc, rocket jumping, or other skill guilds during the history of TF.

[SoBe Green]

Easy Bakez: Because FF is already catering to that community. If TF2 was anything like most of you wanted it to be FF would end up with a bloody nose, two black eyes, and no cake. That I think Valve is afraid of recreating its past work after the horror that was Condition Zero.

[Desyphur]

NO CAKE? THE HOOOOORRRRROR!

Also, TF2 =/= FF

FF =/= TFC

TF2 =/=TFC

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Spiderm4N

ask why tf2 dont have nades :B

In the commentary of the TF2 game, they explain why they built the game the way they did, including the removal of nades.

Is it just me, or are all you people forgetting that most of the original TF development team helped create TF2?

[Bakez]

Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner

Is it just me, or are all you people forgetting that most of the original TF development team helped create TF2?

Yes, all 4 of them were hired back in what, 1997? Are they still on the project now? Who knows. There were countless different members of the dev team in the commentary for TF2. Four people seems a small fraction of the team for TF2 so I doubt it is exactly as they had envisioned all those years ago.

[EngeeMan]

You know there have been at least 2 Valve<->Community games of TF2 on PC so far right? No, of course not. Just make stupid snarky comments about valve being out of touch with PC players and live confident in your ignorance instead.

I played in the first one. The valve guys really tore us apart. They killed us in ways we didn't imagine it possible to be killed in. It was a total sweep in a full game of Dustbowl and Granary. This is why I laugh at idiots who have never played TF2 but think they can claim TF2 takes no skill to play. They obviously have never played a skilled player in TF2.

Being fragged by Robin Walker, in fact dominated by him, was a pleasure though.

[Credge]

I think your reference of skill is different than the skill that most of us talk about. People that say that CS is a skill-less game say it not in the way that CS-ers say it.

For example, it takes a lot of skill to learn how to one shot somebody in the head on the fly. However, it does not take a lot of skill to repeat this skill in every game ever.

Coincidentally, it takes a lot of skill to learn how to conc jump, however, it does not take a lot of skill to repeat this process over and over again. Where it does take skill, though, is adapting your conc jumps to different maps, defenses, and other things.

In TF2, the only skill I can see that is involved is general FPS skill. There is little to no 'outside' skill involved. Generally speaking, if you are good at Quake 3, you will be good at TF2 much like you will be good at FF.

The difference, though, is that in order to excel in FF you have to develop and use more skills than one typically would in games like Quake, UT, etc. Instead of being skillful in aim (and other FPS skills), you have to excel in several different fields.

1. Concing (in all of its forms)
2. BHopping
3. Conc aim
4. Flag tossing

And that's just the tip for offense.

Defense needs to excel in several other areas all depending on the classes that are used, the maps that are played, and the offense you are playing against.

Again, when people say that games like TF2 don't take skill, they aren't referring to the typical FPS skill, they are referring to several other elements that are exclusive to TF/TFC/FF.

And yes, there are certain elements to TF2 that takes skills that other games do not have. This is true for all games. However, I think you will find that being good at FPS games in general will yield more results in TF2 than they will in TFC/FF.

[SoBe Green]

It can also be argued that bhopping, concing, ect aren't REQUIRED skills. You can cap a flag without doing any of those things. You can acquire kills and caps without doing any of those things. To say they are required is a bit too much. If anything I'd assume TF/C/ and FF to have the more generic of the few. The only thing unique to TFC and FF is conc jumping. The rest of that has been done in many different games. nade jumping, rocket jumping, pipe jumping its all been done outside of a TF game before.

Rocket jumping is in TF2 along with pipe jumping. Pipe jumping in TF2 is harder and the demo over all is a harder class to play in TF2 than in TFC and FF. Sentry guns are harder to destroy. The scout has to time his double jumps if he wants to use them correctly. The HW has to have support or he will die. The medic is no longer going solo either. The Soldier, Spy, and Pyro are the only three classes that can go into a base by themselves and do anything. TF2 require teamwork even in pubs. Not to mention timed respawns. In dustbowl as a defender you have to be good at what you do and your team does too. Attackers respawn in 10 seconds and Defenders respawn in 20-30 (can't remember). You could say you have to be BETTER than you are in TFC or FF as you can't just make kamikaze run after kamikaze run until the flag is on the cap point. Grenades? Who needs grenades. So you don't have very good aim and you want to nade someone in substitution for being able to aim. This is what kills TFC to me. Everyone relies on using grenades to get frags where in TF2 you need to be able to aim well.

I know you said TF2 has its own skills and all that but you still seem very biased in thinking that FF and TFC require more than the average FPS and you right, its conc jumping.

TF2 doesn't have unique features this is true. It borrows almost all of its main elements from TF and TFC. With the gameplay added more towards ability to shoot and aim and the required teamwork ingredient. It isn't an inferior game by any means.

Competitive gaming has geared more towards the ability to aim over the ability to perform skill jumps. Its a test of ability over "agility". Anyone can practice and be effective at jumps. But in the end most people will only become so good at shooting and hit a wall. It is in your blood or it isn't. Its a test of an individual and not a test of an individuals ability to perform a certain jump.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

It can also be argued that bhopping, concing, ect aren't REQUIRED skills. You can cap a flag without doing any of those things. You can acquire kills and caps without doing any of those things. To say they are required is a bit too much. If anything I'd assume TF/C/ and FF to have the more generic of the few. The only thing unique to TFC and FF is conc jumping. The rest of that has been done in many different games. nade jumping, rocket jumping, pipe jumping its all been done outside of a TF game before.

Rocket jumping is in TF2 along with pipe jumping. Pipe jumping in TF2 is harder and the demo over all is a harder class to play in TF2 than in TFC and FF. Sentry guns are harder to destroy. The scout has to time his double jumps if he wants to use them correctly. The HW has to have support or he will die. The medic is no longer going solo either. The Soldier, Spy, and Pyro are the only three classes that can go into a base by themselves and do anything. TF2 require teamwork even in pubs. Not to mention timed respawns. In dustbowl as a defender you have to be good at what you do and your team does too. Attackers respawn in 10 seconds and Defenders respawn in 20-30 (can't remember). You could say you have to be BETTER than you are in TFC or FF as you can't just make kamikaze run after kamikaze run until the flag is on the cap point. Grenades? Who needs grenades. So you don't have very good aim and you want to nade someone in substitution for being able to aim. This is what kills TFC to me. Everyone relies on using grenades to get frags where in TF2 you need to be able to aim well.

I know you said TF2 has its own skills and all that but you still seem very biased in thinking that FF and TFC require more than the average FPS and you right, its conc jumping.

TF2 doesn't have unique features this is true. It borrows almost all of its main elements from TF and TFC. With the gameplay added more towards ability to shoot and aim and the required teamwork ingredient. It isn't an inferior game by any means.

Competitive gaming has geared more towards the ability to aim over the ability to perform skill jumps. Its a test of ability over "agility". Anyone can practice and be effective at jumps. But in the end most people will only become so good at shooting and hit a wall. It is in your blood or it isn't. Its a test of an individual and not a test of an individuals ability to perform a certain jump.

Again, this is all relevant to whatever role you are filling. Will somebody on defense need to know how to conc jump? No, not at all. Will he need to know how to BHop? Probably. Will he need to know how to conc aim? Yes.

If this were a DM game then no, the skills used to overcome your enemy would be rooted in general FPS skill. The fact of the matter is that TFC/FF is not a DM game. It's a capture the flag game with DM roots.

The point I was trying to make is this:

If you are good at FPS games you will have a superior ability to DM/Mulch somebody to death. This is fine, that is, if you're playing a DM game. When the game revolves around a flag, your objectives change.

In a game with no classes, the DM'ng bit is just as important as capturing the flag. Your ability to kill your opponent is vital to capturing the flag.

Throw in classes and this element changes. No longer is it simply DM skill that helps you capture the flag, but general knowledge and skill of how said class performs coupled with your ability to DM that does.

Now, start specializing these classes into defined roles and the offensive players DM ability becomes less and less relevant and his movement skills become more and more relevant. Eventually you are left with fast moving classes with little to no DM power that can get past even the best DM'ers.

In other words, all that general FPS skill goes to waste, for the most part, if you can't utilize the other skills that the game offers.

So, as I was saying, you can be incredibly skilled at mulching/dm'ng, however, very little of this actually translates over to core TFC/FF skills:

BHopping
Conc Jumping
Conc Aiming

Also, when I say conc jumping, I'm not referring to conc maps, I am referring to using conc jumping in practice. As in HH'ng up to the top part of the FR in well, concing up the tube in dropdown (or grabbing the flag and concing back up it), concing across any yard, concing up the ramp in aardvark and going around the corner, etc.

Also, unless I specifically say pub, I am always talking about league play.

Edit: Further, if the game offers no game mechanics to support a real difference between classes (besides health, armor, speed, and weaponry) then the class selection is redundant.

[SoBe Green]

I understand. I am talking about pubs. A successful game is a game that attracts the non competitive and the competitive alike.

In a game like TFC or FF your jumping skills aren't going to come into play where in a competitive match they will. For instance you can fly straight through aardvark in a pub and most people might say "hacker!" or "woa that was crazy" but they'll go back to doing whatever it was they were doing.

This isn't a problem so much in TF2 where the objectives are apparent to success. In FF if nobody caps the flag on either team nothing happens, the map changes. In TF2 if nobody caps the game calls both teams losers and the map changes. Things like that improve public play where the things I mentioned in my earlier post improve the competitive play. Its just where the audience is now.

If I had my grandma watch a video of a FF competitive match she'd probably be more lost than if she watched a competitive video of TF2 simple because of how complicated it is. People love to watch games almost as much as they love to play them. The want for a game like FF is smaller than the want for a game like TF2 and CS especially in the HL community.

FF has a lot of room to grow and change into an even greater game. But the people who can't handle the fact that TF2 has no grenades will be the downfall of FF if catered to.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

FF has a lot of room to grow and change into an even greater game. But the people who can't handle the fact that TF2 has no grenades will be the downfall of FF if catered to.

Err... what?

[SoBe Green]

I'm talking about the people who base most of their dislike of TF2 on lack of grenades. In my eyes FF will have to make a radical change of some sort to gain a strong foot hold and player base. Basically I'm saying these people are a minority. It wasn't directed at you.

[Private_Joker]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

In my eyes FF will have to make a radical change of some sort to gain a strong foot hold and player base.

You're right, but remember that FF is how it is because the devs resist change; it's not about making a game everyone will play, it's about making a great game. VALVe made a game that everyone would buy and play, and the FF devs made a game that they, and people like them, loved.

What FF needs is players who really respect what Fortress is all about; and it has them, about 200 of them (need more!) I don't believe that many TF2 players really respect Fortress, because most of them are CS players who've never heard of Fortress.

-Joker

[SoBe Green]

Very true. But there is a balance in making a game everyone will play and a great game. If everyone is playing it why can we not assume it is also a great game? I don't know many people who will play a game they hate.

FF is a great game but not something a lot of people want to play. If a player doesn't know what a Fortress game is how can you expect them to respect or understand it? Added with the attitude most players have with all the TF2 hate why would a player directed here after playing TF2 want to post or try the game. All it takes is a few dumb forum whores posting negative feedback and you start scaring people away.

The method of bashing TF2 and supporting FF isn't going to work. Thats how you end up with the CS TFC rivalry. Too many TFC players laughing at CS as it became the #1 PC multiplayer game and held its spot for years. You end up with a negative community. This is to me already the start of the end of a good community.

In the end as I said I feel FF will have to do something for appeal and likely a lot of players are going to hate it but the majority will love it.

[mervaka]

i'm starting to think the whole idea of having a game with such a level of depth just isnt cool these days. people's attention spans are shrinking, and want to just pick up a game and play it, and hopefully have fun!