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Old 02-17-2008, 04:53 AM   #101
Sh4x
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I love the fast action of FF and I've been involved with TFC since 2000, spent hundreds of hours in hammer to make ff_dropdown, etc... I mean... I love it. The work that's been done on FF is tremendous and I have a great deal of fun playing and mapping for the mod. I just don't think it's accessible to everyone.

Sadly, I don't see this mod becoming very popular without a dramatic reduction of overall gameplay speed. Of course I know it's never gonna happen because everyone that's sticking with FF today, those playing it and those designing it, are kinda old school and like the fast gameplay which explains why they're still around. So I'm just saying, unless it takes on a new direction like TF2 did, it's never gonna grow big.

Gameplay needs to be alot slower to be enjoyable by your typical Joe. I doubt new players get very excited when they join a server and see people flying all over the place at the speed of light...

There, I hope you guys can be more optimistic than I am. Back to playing FF...
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:58 AM   #102
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I hope to never see the pace of the game compromised because of a lack of "new player" interest.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:01 AM   #103
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You'd better hope to never see a game die because of the lack of players.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:26 AM   #104
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i think aftershok is right. Sure, there are still some things that need work, but overall theres a big improvement.

As he said, pre-2.0 the main defenders (sol/demo/hw/engi) all had big disadvantages when matched with the attackers speed and utility, each class has been tweaked in the right areas to fix this.
  • Soldiers get bigger blast and dont propel their targets anymore
  • Demomen have had their close combat abilities tweaked and hit things with blues now!
  • Engi's SGs actually work
  • Heavy Weapons doesnt get limited to short bursts any more - i.e. theres a _skill_ to playing him. You dont HAVE to tap fire anymore, it just helps... alot!
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:33 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3allz
As he said, pre-2.0 the main defenders (sol/demo/hw/engi) all had big disadvantages when matched with the attackers speed and utility, each class has been tweaked in the right areas to fix this.
I disagree whole heartedly here. Perhaps in pubs skilled offensive players have an advantage, but in an organized environment, it simply wasn't an issue. The only real issue were some of the explosion radii (plural of radius, I believe =\). This wasn't a major issue, though.

In an organized atmosphere, the only offensive classes that get played are scout and medic, with the occasional defensive class going in to bust some defense up. Scouts and medics did the job they had rather well.

The game was balanced at the top level, with some slight tweaking needed to be done. Now, though, much more tweaking has to be done to balance it.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:36 AM   #106
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I think your wrong. Admitadley ive only played 1 pickup (clan style) game in FF's entire exsistance since uni blocks it. However, ive played recently on a clan style server (and before) and it was blatent offense was overpowered. Ive had enough experience with TFC matches to tell when something is too easy or hard, and playing scout/medic was easier than it is in any fortress based game. Not only did the defenders have the disadvantages i mentioned before, but as a scout you could gain so much speed and unpredicated movement that a defender had no chance.

But they couldnt nerf the attackers because that would be taking the fun out of the game (fast paced ftw)! so instead they buffed the defenders! And it works out fine tbh (well... almost fine!)

Last edited by 3allz; 02-17-2008 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:53 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3allz
I think your wrong. Admitadley ive only played 1 pickup (clan style) game in FF's entire exsistance since uni blocks it. However, ive played recently on a clan style server (and before) and it blatent offense was overpowered. Ive had enough experience with TFC matches to tell when something is too easy or hard, and playing scout/medic was easier than it is in any fortress based game. Not only did the defenders have the disadvantages i mentioned before, but as a scout you could gain so much speed and unpredicated movement that a defender had no chance.

But they couldnt nerf the attackers because that would be taking the fun out of the game (fast paced ftw)! so instead they buffed the defenders! And it works out fine tbh (well... almost fine!)
It was fine. The flow of the game wasn't dictated by which side was more powerful, but what side the map favored (offense or defense). Even further, some maps change completely with differing numbers of players.

Dropdown is nearly impossibly to cap on in a 5v5 full game (2O 3D). Change that into a 7v7 and you've got regular caps. Make it a 9v9 and the D has an insanely hard time.

Turn that around to a map like congestus. In a 5v5, 3D has a rough time. 7v7 is pretty even. 9v9's are D friendly.

The side that is favored was dictated by the map. That is balance. There really wasn't much need to add in vastly new game mechanics, but I get it. It's something new. However, instead of slight tweaking (BHop speed, explosion radius', damage tweaks, etc), there are a plethora of other things that need to be fixed and adjusted.

This whole "O is superior" thing is brand new. Before the patch, nobody stated this. Ever. If anything, there has been a discussion about how the O is vastly weaker than the D. Of course, this has to do with the skill level of the typical offense we have.

From a pubbers perspective, a good O player is incredibly overpowering. As a defensive player, I can go in and completely stomp a pub teams defense. That's just the nature of the game. The same happened in TFC as well. This doesn't translate into the leagues, though.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:54 AM   #108
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I honestly don't think anyone can make the sweeping statements (in either direction) that we've seen in this thread about A being unbalanced or B ruining that after only playing it for a day...

Alot of the changes were definitely for the better, but the larger ones are at this point up in the air. Change is not always a bad thing, and you can't know if it is or not until you get used to it.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:55 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh4x
You'd better hope to never see a game die because of the lack of players.
Indeed I do.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:02 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Dropdown is nearly impossibly to cap on in a 5v5 full game (2O 3D). Change that into a 7v7 and you've got regular caps. Make it a 9v9 and the D has an insanely hard time.
If you know how to conc and can play medic, dropdown can be super easy even in 5v5 for offense. prime a conc, drop below you as you drop to get the flag, and it will go off, popping you back up and you are home free. Most of the defense is near the bottom area. SG may be placed near the top area, but can be easily be taken out most of the time.

-or-

If the defense is primarily using the upper areas, knowing that they're not going to let anyone near that hole, then you can conc up to the flag, albeit more difficult, it is still possible, even without getting the security.

Maybe this is why you are our defensive captain and not the offensive captain. :P
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:18 AM   #111
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Maybe this is why you are our defensive captain and not the offensive captain. :P
Rgr. Wouldn't use either of those set ups =P as they don't work =P.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:57 AM   #112
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Gameplay needs to be alot slower to be enjoyable by your typical Joe. I doubt new players get very excited when they join a server and see people flying all over the place at the speed of light...
Well it's probably a personal preference thing, I like all the speed and craziness, but the average person probably less so. The mod is specialized enough as it is, I don't think that will hurt it much. Look at the hit Onslaught mode in UT2004 has been (one of the fastest gameplay modes I've played). It's had and still has quite a following, however it doesn't acheive the same numbers as something like Halo has (a much slower game). While I think things might be getting a little bit nuts with the 2.0 patch, it's difficult where to tell where to crank it down.
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:14 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ViLE
the reason the soldier was the holy-cow is the nature of his weapons, and the nature of the game
no, its rather the DM-history of some dev wanting them to have their kickarse-class
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When you got kids flying past you at 500 miles an hour a weapon that stops them, is easy to use (shoot teh floor!!!) and is very powerful (2 rockets bye bye scout, 3 rockets see ya medi), is of COURSE going to be perceived as the 'holy-cow'.
so the soldier got this abilities to stop the fast concers then? well, too bad he uses this megaweapon against all the other classes as well ... here where the unfairness begins. Why not make the offers weaker instead of picking out one class and make it the God to stop them?
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The nature of the game is speed and fast-paced decisions, not tracing a dot across the yard at another player.
'speed' and 'fast-paced' sound nice, but you dont need the god-soldier to get it balanced ...
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Just because you, personally, feel sniper is fun, awesome, righteous, amazing, should be the main class,
who said i do? its not the case, all i want is a balanced game, what he have now it a "team-soldier + the rest" sort of game

Last edited by mixer; 02-17-2008 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:26 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer
so the soldier got this abilities to stop the fast concers then? well, too bad he uses this megaweapon against all the other classes as well ... here where the unfairness begins. Why not make the offers weaker instead of picking out one class and make it the God to stop them?

who said i do? its not the case, all i want is a balanced game, what he have now it a "team-soldier + the rest" sort of game
Not sure where you're getting the impression that the solder was buffed hugestyle. All that happened was a small rocket radius increase and the nailgren made actually worthwhile.

And, soldier defenses are not viable. At all.
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by squeek.
And, soldier defenses are not viable. At all.
Que?

Are you talking full soldier defense or having one to two soldiers?
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:43 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Que?

Are you talking full soldier defense or having one to two soldiers?
Full.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:41 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
I honestly don't think anyone can make the sweeping statements (in either direction) that we've seen in this thread about A being unbalanced or B ruining that after only playing it for a day...
You sir...are a genius!

Seriously too not sarcasm...I agree with you 1000% (yeah 1000 not 100)!
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:22 AM   #118
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HW definately eats ammo too fast now. We'll address that in 2.1

Also yep dispensers don't tick fast enough. 2.1 fix!

Quote:
Pyro is still nothing but an annoyance for experienced defenders and is useless on defense due to the time it takes him to kill players.
A pyro can decimate a T-soldier on monkey now. He also owns demomen and HWs pretty fast. If you think he's useless on defense you haven't seen a good def pyro. Playing against Sidd42 as pyro sd2 ramp was insane. Was like playing against a soldier who never ran out of rockets. Very good defensive option in that position.

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Demoman is too much now. Monkey is an example of a map where he simply owns it. Not in the pwn sense, but the "I bought this and this is mine" sense.
Would you use more than 1, though? If we aren't seeing 2-3 demomen defenses as standard then he probably isn't overpowered. That said, I'm gonna look into adding extra damage for direct blue hits and reducing the radius slightly for 2.1 (to encourage accuracy)
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:56 AM   #119
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I'm loving the new update. Seems to fix a lot of my issues with the older versions. I don't know, it just feels more professional, and complete. Great work guys!

I'm not the best, but I made this video of the new(ish) Scout stuff. I'm not the greatest at being speedy with everything though... so I'm not trying to show off. I don't have anything TO show off.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ouobRdCch6w
(a lot of the stutter is because Source Recorder didn't pick up the frames... I have no idea why)

All in all, TERRIFIC UPDATE GUYS!
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:42 PM   #120
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as a defensive player, I can go in and completely stomp a pub teams defense. That's just the nature of the game. The same happened in TFC as well. This doesn't translate into the leagues, though.
Dont know what public servers youve been playing on, but i was refering to clan style ones where people can actually play and you cant just 'walk right in and stomp a teams defense'. Seriously, if you were playing against decent players, you wouldnt have said that.

And yes a clan style public game does translate into league play completely, always has. Only difference is that in a proper leauge match, theres gonna be more team work and more coridination on offy and def. Everything else stays the same... sure on a public server the FL defender might be a medic normaly so getting past him would be easier than someone who actually does play soldier, but thats only 1/4 of the defence - chances are the others arnt so shit.
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