Ways to improve FF?

[the_cake]

YouTube

YouTube

This video represents my whole view of game design and made me lol at the same time. Specifically the part about the Mega Man X first level.

[squeek.]

I watched that when it was linked in the pickup channel as well. It's quite good.

[KubeDawg]

Hell yeah, Metal Warriors @ 1:58, one of the best SNES games ever.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

That's sounds likes a really bad idea to me honestly. I feel that any time you handicap yourself you get cheated out of experience. Some times the only way to get better is to get the crap kicked out of you over and over.

i think they'd more rapidly gain experience in map strategies and how to use each class's weapons/grens/etc. the essential experience they'd be missing out in is learning how much damage each class can take in practice, but this is about weighing up the pros/cons and the scaling factor could be made clear to help that issue.

what important experience in learning to play FF pickups do you think comes explicity by having the crap kicked out of you over and over? in addition to that probably being quite demoralising for most new players, the big problem is that this makes the pickup unbalanced because atm (for many reasons, which we could go into if needed) it's extremely hard to reliably have well balanced teams with just one inexperienced player in a pickup (even if everyone is trying their best to make them so).

imo we need to try to make it easier to have well balanced teams with an inexperienced player/players in pickups, while also helping them learn to play and obviously enjoying doing so. any other ideas?

[KubeDawg]

^ This is why I am so in favor of pubs over pickup servers for newcomers. Pubs give the newer players a way to learn the basics of what to do and what not to do.

Yes, you can become better in a pickup environment because you have more of a challenge and things are more controlled, but there needs to be some sort of ground-level training and I think a pub environment is much better. Surely, pub play will be more chaotic. It's not a frenzy of competitive play for the sake of showing off. After all, getting the highest score in a pub server doesn't really mean much, right? Because you're playing against a bunch of noobs? Well, that's only partly true because I've played FF since its release and TFC long before that and I still enjoy pubs more than pickups or competitive play. So am I the one exception? Doubtful.

I think people who stick around mostly started playing in pubs, especially with regards to TFC. There's no one here who strictly played pickups when they started playing, because they hadn't yet learned the ropes, or learned things on their own. Nobody wants to spectate and meticulously watch someone else play in a pickup, just as nobody wants to add to a pickup, only to realize just how much of a noob people can make them feel. That just creates an even bigger hurdle to overcome, at least in the mind of a newcomer.

[hadez]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

Okay, I agree with the scout armor and sniper suggestions. That's 2 down.

Definitely still want a jetpack focused pyro, more "OMG A SUPER BLUE PIPE ULTRA KILL %H %A", and dat grappling hook.

thank you for using my bind for an example br0 <3

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by caesium

i think they'd more rapidly gain experience in map strategies and how to use each class's weapons/grens/etc. the essential experience they'd be missing out in is learning how much damage each class can take in practice, but this is about weighing up the pros/cons and the scaling factor could be made clear to help that issue.

what important experience in learning to play FF pickups do you think comes explicity by having the crap kicked out of you over and over? in addition to that probably being quite demoralising for most new players, the big problem is that this makes the pickup unbalanced because atm (for many reasons, which we could go into if needed) it's extremely hard to reliably have well balanced teams with just one inexperienced player in a pickup (even if everyone is trying their best to make them so).

imo we need to try to make it easier to have well balanced teams with an inexperienced player/players in pickups, while also helping them learn to play and obviously enjoying doing so. any other ideas?

I whole heartedly disagree. Pickups should never be the place to cater to the inexperienced. It should be an open and welcoming experience, and you should play if you want, but it should be pretty obvious that you aren't going to do well. You should go pub for a while if you're just starting out. If someone's truely interested in comp play then they will start to spec and play in pickups.

I'd say that giving a handicap to people would be even less fair for the experienced players than having to play on un even teams. And I still don't think that it'd be better for a new player than just playing the game.

It's hard to explain what's to gain out of having your ass handed to you. But the best way to get good is to play against the best, and they're going to hand your ass to you.

I sure there's some point where, it'd be more beneficial to play against someone who's a fair deal better than you, as opposed to the people who play now that leaps and bounds ahead of new players. But it still works out.

[Respect38]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I whole heartedly disagree. Pickups should never be the place to cater to the inexperienced. It should be an open and welcoming experience, and you should play if you want, but it should be pretty obvious that you aren't going to do well. You should go pub for a while if you're just starting out. If someone's truely interested in comp play then they will start to spec and play in pickups.

I'd say that giving a handicap to people would be even less fair for the experienced players than having to play on un even teams. And I still don't think that it'd be better for a new player than just playing the game.

It's hard to explain what's to gain out of having your ass handed to you. But the best way to get good is to play against the best, and they're going to hand your ass to you.

I sure there's some point where, it'd be more beneficial to play against someone who's a fair deal better than you, as opposed to the people who play now that leaps and bounds ahead of new players. But it still works out.

Please clarify this: do you oppose the idea of handicaps in pickups or handicaps in any circumstance?

I see no problem with handicaps if the server owner manages them. Would be good for servers designed with new players in mind. (which there aren't right now, maybe because there aren't many mechanics for these things?)

[CaptainAhab]

Originally Posted by mariofan38

Please clarify this: do you oppose the idea of handicaps in pickups or handicaps in any circumstance?

I see no problem with handicaps if the server owner manages them. Would be good for servers designed with new players in mind. (which there aren't right now, maybe because there aren't many mechanics for these things?)

For specific servers with new players in mind, it could be either good or bad, depending on how one looks at it.

From FDA's (and personally, my) point of view, one of the best ways to learn is by playing against and with very good players. Handicapping a player is detracting from an otherwise harsh, but efficient and tried-and-true learning experience: how are you supposed to get better unless you learn the hard way, and play with those who have a deep understanding of the game? Handicapping would detract from any positive effects that "getting your ass handed to you" or, from my perspective, "learning the hard way, but learning well in the end" has on the newer player.

On the flip side, handicaps can give newer players some form of confidence and a little buffer for those who would prefer to not have the new player experience as it is now in FF and in Quake Live: playing against godly people and getting their ass kicked for countless pickups until they take what they have experienced and witnessed and put it to use through their own means and have come out a better player in the end because of it. Handicaps help ensure that pickups can be slightly more fair and gives the newer players some spirit instead of putting them through a horrific mono-genocide, but at the same time, it also makes them relatively unfair -- more experienced players should kick the asses of newer players, that's just how games with high skill ceilings like FF, Quake, Tribes, Doom, etc. work.

I'm fully willing to accept this getting-my-ass-handed-to-me-for-a-while philosophy, and I'm in the earliest stages of playing pickups.

My personal opinion is that newer players should get destroyed by veterans, but that on the flip side, veterans should be more than willing to help out newer players in any ways that they possibly can, in order to breed more strong competitive players in the end for more variety in pickups. I know every team that I have been on has been helpful in teaching me positioning, where to put jump pads, where/how to conc, which routes to take, and the like, which I am very grateful for.

/twocents

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by mariofan38

Please clarify this: do you oppose the idea of handicaps in pickups or handicaps in any circumstance?

I see no problem with handicaps if the server owner manages them. Would be good for servers designed with new players in mind. (which there aren't right now, maybe because there aren't many mechanics for these things?)

I don't think a handicap is really good in any circustance.

I stand by my opinion. The best way to learn is to play the game the way it's meant to be. There are certain things that could be done to help new players learn faster, but a handicap is not one of them.

[Respect38]

Originally Posted by CaptainAhab

For specific servers with new players in mind, it could be either good or bad, depending on how one looks at it.

From FDA's (and personally, my) point of view, one of the best ways to learn is by playing against and with very good players. Handicapping a player is detracting from an otherwise harsh, but efficient and tried-and-true learning experience: how are you supposed to get better unless you learn the hard way, and play with those who have a deep understanding of the game? Handicapping would detract from any positive effects that "getting your ass handed to you" or, from my perspective, "learning the hard way, but learning well in the end" has on the newer player.

On the flip side, handicaps can give newer players some form of confidence and a little buffer for those who would prefer to not have the new player experience as it is now in FF and in Quake Live: playing against godly people and getting their ass kicked for countless pickups until they take what they have experienced and witnessed and put it to use through their own means and have come out a better player in the end because of it. Handicaps help ensure that pickups can be slightly more fair and gives the newer players some spirit instead of putting them through a horrific mono-genocide, but at the same time, it also makes them relatively unfair -- more experienced players should kick the asses of newer players, that's just how games with high skill ceilings like FF, Quake, Tribes, Doom, etc. work.

I'm fully willing to accept this getting-my-ass-handed-to-me-for-a-while philosophy, and I'm in the earliest stages of playing pickups.

My personal opinion is that newer players should get destroyed by veterans, but that on the flip side, veterans should be more than willing to help out newer players in any ways that they possibly can, in order to breed more strong competitive players in the end for more variety in pickups. I know every team that I have been on has been helpful in teaching me positioning, where to put jump pads, where/how to conc, which routes to take, and the like, which I am very grateful for.

/twocents

I could see that, if the population gets up and we would at some point have a server that would have "handicaps" like so, then what you would see is something else--they'll probably not play with veteran players anyhow, they will likely end up with people who would need the handicap--new players. This handicap, depending on what it is, could assist players with learning some of the ins and outs of the game, with even competition. Once they gain the experience to lose the handicap (depending on how it would be decided when it would be on) they would have the option to continue playing there and be without the handicap vs. players who would have the handicap. Or, they could graduate to the big leagues. That's how I see this working.

And, once again I emphasize, this is an idea that probably cannot be implemented without a population.

[CaptainAhab]

Originally Posted by mariofan38

And, once again I emphasize, this is an idea that probably cannot be implemented without a population.

Aye, a lot of these ideas would only work with an at least moderate population, and right now FF's is far too small for anything like this, or things such as league divisions. If there were roughly 100 participants even in a league there could be 2-3 divisions, but as it stands, that can't really happen, not enough people.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

Pickups should never be the place to cater to the inexperienced

i agree that pickups should not try to cater to players inexperienced at FF in general (i.e. including public play), but pickups need to cater to players inexperienced at pickups in order to attract new players - that's the point of this.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

You should go pub for a while if you're just starting out

yes, but however experienced you are at public play there's a lot to learn when you start playing pickups (namely gaining experience in map strategies and how to use each class's weapons/grens/etc in the context of competitive play, which can be very different to public play) before you can function both effectively and reliably enough to expect most new players to enjoy the experience and also to have balanced teams so that others enjoy it too.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

it should be pretty obvious that you aren't going to do well

but what's the benefit of that? seems like that could be a big negative for many ppl new to pickups, so why not try to address that if we can?

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

giving a handicap to people would be even less fair for the experienced players than having to play on un even teams

i don't think "fair" is the point here (in fact it's clearly "unfair"), but rather whether the other players mind or not. i think that would depend on whether the admin uses the system appropriately (i.e. ONLY for really inexperienced players, trying to find their feet, in order to give them a better chance of seeing what's cool about the game and therefore continuing to play then maybe getting hooked).

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

It's hard to explain what's to gain out of having your ass handed to you. But the best way to get good is to play against the best, and they're going to hand your ass to you.

i agree that the best way to get good is to play with and against the best (and that's exactly what this would help), but you've not given any benefits that come explicity from having your ass handed to you (whereas we've already said there may be obvious negatives to that) and that doesn't have to be an inevitable consequence of playing with good players (that's the point of this).

Originally Posted by CaptainAhab

Handicapping a player is detracting from an otherwise harsh, but efficient and tried-and-true learning experience: how are you supposed to get better unless you learn the hard way, and play with those who have a deep understanding of the game? Handicapping would detract from any positive effects that "getting your ass handed to you" or, from my perspective, "learning the hard way, but learning well in the end" has on the newer player.

as the one above, i agree about playing with and against the best, but what do you think the benefits that come explicity from having your ass handed to you are?

/quotewars

btw my personal feeling is that handicaps are not a good idea, although i struggle to justify why logically other than potential admin over-use/abuse.

[AfterShock]

If players had rankings then you could balance the teams better so new playres dont always lose, but also new players could gain ranking as they improve, despite losing a lot. If they lose by less and less then they are clearly improving.

[oaties]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

If players had rankings then you could balance the teams better so new playres dont always lose, but also new players could gain ranking as they improve, despite losing a lot. If they lose by less and less then they are clearly improving.

This would be a great idea (Player rankings, recorded through the !parsed), and could definitely be possible. The problem is, how is rank determined? It can't be kill/death ratio, because as a scout you will often get 50+ deaths with only 1 or 2 kills. Would each separate class have different methods for determining rank? For example, as scout your rank could be based on average caps per minute, or caps per match, or just lifetime caps, while as medic your rank could not only be based on kills, but also on sentry kills, demo kills, captures etc. A defensive class such as soldier could be based on kills, but there a lot of factors that could also come into play such as killing the flag carrier etc.

I would love to see player rankings come into effect, but obviously that would take a lot of time and effort to make.

It would really simplify team picking. Imagine if you are thinking of who to pick for a team, and you know that you need a good demo. If you could type "!rank demoman" ingame and have a drop down list showing everyone's rank as a demoman, you could make more educated picks.

[CaptainAhab]

Creating ranks for this game, while a solid idea in my opinion, would be extremely difficult to implement well.

There are just so many factors in a game as complex as this that would need to be taken into account when determining the rank, unlike games like QL, where you can just go off of K/D, where/how you place in a match, etc.

[AfterShock]

The simplest system is just: win game = gain ranking, lose game = lose ranking. How balanced the teams were to start with would decide how much ranking you'd gain/lose.

A more sophisticated system could estimate the score as well as who would win, so if it guesses team A will win 120-70 and team A wins 100-90 then potentially team B gains some ranking. It might make games a bit more fun if you know you're probably going to lose but you at least have a score to aim for.

Like you say, parsing logs from games and working out how good each player was might not be very accurate (but interesting to have stats on players as another feature too though).

[KubeDawg]

Yeah AS, it could be something as simple as that, then just work in the future to make the ranking system more complex/detailed/based off things other than just win/lose games.

[DarkeN_HellspawN]

But I believe the snipers rifle is under powered. It is a .50 cal sniper rifle. It should do three times that damage. Also make it so that I can sniper while jumping in the air which would be a plus. Make the sniper move faster while using the scope and a conc nade wouldnt hurt either so that I can get to some high up sniper spots. The sniper class is the most respectfull in my eyes and people generally love playing against it and playing it. We at the sniper brigade ask that this class be moved up in strength and speed since we are spammed way to much on our platforms.

[CatzEyes93]

I have a stupid idea to throw out there.

Hows about you put all the weapons, hit boxes, damage taken and given, strength and weakness settings back to vanilla such as what we see in tfc. (oohhhh I used that word again!)

I guess the reason I say this is that I think they had something there. The game was a success for a long time because... well.... the balance WORKED.