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Old 02-18-2008, 04:00 AM   #161
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The sniper is great in AVD, especially in dustbowl once the gates open. His usefulness dwindles almost dramatically immediately, but most classes do once the gates open in dustbowl. After that initial burst, he's not as useful as he could be, although he is ten million times more useful in general AVD and pubs than he is in league play.

And before anyone says "You can't say that until the leagues start!" Most certainly one can. The sniper in FF is practically identical to those in TFC. If anything, a sniper in FF has a disadvantage to those in TFC as the speed of FF is just that much faster.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:03 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Jiggles
So, basically, you're arguing that the Pyro sucks.
He stated that the pyro has good damage and I agree =\. Spies have good damage as well, but it doesn't mean they are any good for anything besides pubs.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:04 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
?

The pyro does do good damage. However, how he does the damage is inferior to other classes. His lower HP, compared to his area denial, makes him a poor choice on defense and on offense his speed and manueverability make him, again, a poor choice.

To make a comparison, the pyro is like a slower medic without a conc. Would you run something like that on offense or defense?
I hope to see a team with an O pyro go against you in UGC. Someone better do it.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:12 AM   #164
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A lot of the old, really skilled TFC clanners have either quit or gone to TF2. The current skill-pool of FF is a bit lacking. There were actually quite a few clanners that were fairly effective with the TFC Pyro (who actually was weak) -- I'd like to seem them now with the FF one.

Oh well, hopefully this will change as the community grows.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:22 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
?

The pyro does do good damage. However, how he does the damage is inferior to other classes. His lower HP, compared to his area denial, makes him a poor choice on defense and on offense his speed and manueverability make him, again, a poor choice.

To make a comparison, the pyro is like a slower medic without a conc. Would you run something like that on offense or defense?
doesnt matter about the speed he flames someone and gets a 2nd degree burn that person who has it will die no matter what. His speed is almost as fast as a medic. All it takes is a few spamming napalms. You can not kill a pyro that is next to you without getting burn (unless they afk or a complete nub) Pyro is over powered dont care how you put it in your words, its a fact.
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:30 AM   #166
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The spy can instantly kill you if he gets behind you as well, whats your point =\? It's no surprise when a pyro comes rolling in as he's usually firing arched rockets everywhere or flaming everything all the time or flaming around backwards not seeing where he is going.

The fact that he has to get close to you to kill you is silly as well. A mirv in hand, a shotty blast and two rockets (easily done), a blue gren and a grenade... all of these kill the pyro instantly. So a defensive player dies. He's back in his spot in about a second or two. The majority of maps have respawns that are extremely close to where players play.

Aardvark
Monkey
SD2
Derive
Siden
Startec
Openfire

Just to name a few. Coincidentally, these are maps where the pyro would be best (close quarters maps). Even further, these are maps where SG's are used... something that the pyro doesn't really handle very well.

Tossing a napalm or two doesn't do much as an engineer can simply walk into the fire and hit it a few times. The SG is not destroyed.

So, then what? You kill a defender that is respawning instantly and, probably, close to where he died. What exactly does that do? You still know where that offensive player is heading and the others can prepare for it.

You'd also be better off with a demoman or engineer on offense. Mirvs take people out as well as SG's and EMP's can destroy SG's and pipe traps through walls, giving those classes even more mileage than before. Demomen can travel faster than pyros to boot. You know, the whole laying two pipes on the ground thing.

An engineer can play two roles at once if he swings. EMP's simply drape SG's and pipe traps. Yes, drape. Drastically rape. Even though the engineer moves slower, he can play two roles at once, making him an effective choice and essentially allowing two and a half offense and two and a half defense in a 5v5.

And, of course, a scout is simply faster than a pyro. A medic is faster due to his concs and is better at taking out SG's.

The most important role of a non-movement based offensive class is to take out the SG. With the SG gone, most maps are completely open to a cap spree. While they pyro can do it in certain situations, others do it better and more consistently.

The pyro is like the sniper. The sniper does a ton of damage but you don't see them in gathers (or leagues in TFC where the sniper is almost identical). Why is that? He does a ton of damage instantly and can be an assured kill on offense and a potential kill on defense.
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:44 AM   #167
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I don't see the point in ruling out the hypothetical effectiveness of a pyro in league play without seeing one in action...
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:36 AM   #168
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The Pyro does need to get raped less by an EMP though. Insta-kill = bad.

And yeah, mappers really need to stop putting respawns 2 feet from the flag or important choke points. That shit gets old.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:27 AM   #169
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Scout caltrops

Hey I have yet to test the jump pad but I really think caltrops shouldnt be removed. Why not keep them? There very handy when running from people in tunnels, such as congestus. There could be a special3 key that is the demos det, and scout jump pad, and whatever else you would add. Just my input

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Old 02-18-2008, 08:40 AM   #170
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Hum, if Pyros and Snipers are THAT bad, why some clan servers, leagues etc. ban their use? Shouldn't it be the team using them loss? Doesn't make much sense.

Remember, even though the Pyro now has higher moblity with the jetpack, and still has frag jumps, his main role is offensive disruption. If you get one or two Defenders on fire, they'll concentrate on killing you, leaving the door open for that Scout to enter the enemy base unscratched. You can get a lv3 burn pretty fast, and at lv3 the enemy will either suicide to try to kill you or go to the resupply, which will make him lose time anyways allowing the "real" offense go in. How do you know where are the enemies? Well, I can't know for sure in pub play, but league play uses strats. And I bet it's not that hard to guess that there will be at least one defender in Shutdown2's ramp, for example.

And this is only in CTF. In AvD the Pyro is much more useful. Hell, I played Pyro in TFC and capturing the flag in Dustbowl, Cornfield, Avanti, etc. was even faster than as Soldier, even with all the Defense set up and without need of secondary nades.

About that "Engineer can OHKO the Pyro", I could use that "You don't know where the enemy is" statement. When he sees you, you've got 4 seconds to put him up to a lv2 burn if you don't want to waste a napalm nade. He will go down even faster if you can sneak in a frag. Now there's a SG unguarded to destroy, etc.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:08 PM   #171
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so many noobs...


spy: he already is very effective and useful in both clan and pub play at his specific role. in clanplay this role is currently 2 fold on most maps: 1) making a breakthrough if offy are stuck. 2) as a counter (and hence big deterent) to multiple SG def setups. i agree that he is v unlikely to be a staple member of an offy setup, and if that is what's wanted then yes things need to change. however, i think he's got a v important and well balanced role that works great right now, and offy can use him effectively if they are good enough to adapt themselves to the enemy defence as the situation requires.


pyro and CTF clanplay (i dno that much about other gametypes clanplay): although unlikely to be a staple member of the team, he is certainly not useless. in offy he is fairly quick and able to cause a load of chaos, which can soemtimes be exactly what's needed to make a breakthrough or cap. in defence he is not simply an inferior soldier as some are saying but a completely different class, and although he lacks stopping power he can do a great job of completely disrupting offy's predetermined moves, stripping everyone of h/a for the backline def to deal with, and is pretty much impossible to over-run due to not having to reload and the large damage areas of his weapons (he just luvs multiple nmes at once!). whether or not he'll he used much in leagues is another question, but he's certainly offering some interesting options.

i taught sidd42 to play TF (and to spam!) so i know what you mean lol, shok NOE!1 SURVIVE SPAMCOWE. and while i'm on the subject, spam is most definitely a skill (spam isn't rly the right word imo, but to a noob much of FF might look like spam when it's really not lol). you're right tho, vile, shok sucks bigtime! who are you btw? dno if i ever pld u, but then i forget lots so mb i have.


sniper and CTF clanplay (i dno that much about other gametypes clanplay): this isn't an easy one to explain to ppl, i mean i wanted to be a clanning def sniper for the first 6 months or so that i pld TFC lol... anyway, let me use aardvark as an example (a map many ppl would say is one of the best for a sniper). imagine we're playing 8v8, 4d v 4o on each team, you decide to use a sniper on def, and the nme is using 4 concing offy. i know this wouldn't actually happen, but for the purposes of this example imagine that our sniper does pretty well and kills one of the nme offy over and over every time he sticks his head out of the spawn (it takes about 4 seconds for a decent scout to spawn and get to conc platform, so it's possible). in a 30 minute match our sniper would therefore get 450 kills, and so some might think he's doing a pretty damn good job for his team. the problem is that all the sniper has actually done is completely remove himself and one nme offy from the game, which means that effectively the sniper's team now has 3d v 3o. reducing the numbers like this almost always greatly favours the offy (anyone who has pld a lot of 2v2s or 3v3s will know how many more caps you tend to get) because def simply don't have enough ppl to hold and make use of the good def positions, and big gaps appear between the layers of the defence that give the offy the space and time to pause and regroup before attacking the backline defence on their own terms. basically it's all v bad news for the defence. add to this the fact that in reality a sniper probably won't do quite this well, and you can see why using a sniper in CTF clanplay is certainly not ftw D: ofc in practice it's much more complex than this regarding who the sniper kills and where, but this example hopefully gets the basic point across.

the only valid use of a sniper on def in CTF clanplay is if there is a specific nme offy that you need to take out each run, and you are therefore happy to sacrifice one of your defenders in order to do this (e.g. your def is being taken apart by one particular offy such as a spy, a heavier class, one rly good player, or there's a location that when an offy gets there they pose a big threat [e.g. highflag in tfc], etc). snipers on offy in CTF clanplay can ofc occassionally be useful for making a breakthrough too (such as removing an SG), but i don't think anyone is denying that.


snipers on public servers: they don't annoy me at all, but i can see why ppl who aren't good enough to evade them might get a bit pissed sometimes. i think it's a bit sad that some snipers really do think they pwn, when in fact they are just making their team loose big time, and more importantly they are missing out on the stuff that makes FF so cool. nm, their loss. don't get me wrong, i like to do a bit of sniping now and then too, but when i do i'm fully aware i'm not doing too much to help my team win.


jiggles: if a mapper puts a respawn close to a def position, it's because he's trying to encourage the offy to pass that defender rather than just dm him. if they want to attack via that way, this greatly encourages the faster non-dm classes on offy (if you want your team to actually win rather than just think you pwn cos you take down the frontline def 100 times but never cap lol), and creates the awesome fast gameplay some of FF's maps have. offy also usually have choices of which way they take the flag, or even just how they attack as a team, that will change the proximity of the def to resups/respawns, which massively changes the effectiveness of them using a dm offy. ofc it's up to mappers to use this well to make a map that plays as they want it to, but my point is that the careful and balanced placement of resups/respawns close to certain def positions (and flag routes) is an essential tool for creating the fast non-dm orientated offy gameplay that some ppl (me) love!


summary: FF pwns and will continue to get btr fast. imo sniper could use a big rethink to make him more of a valid choice for clanplay (but this is not breaking news, and ppl have been thinking about this for a while so i'm sure something sweet will come up in due course). if development and tweaking continues at this rate, FF will be v awesome v soon.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:15 PM   #172
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Quote:
so many noobs...
Agreed


Did i read someone say aftershok has no skill?!

Also Credge insisting that clan style public isnt the same as a clan match. I know in TFC that if Nar, Bobo, Rizzo, etc joined a public and started defending, id have a much harder time than the clan match i had the day before against [PRO] clan...

Edit: I dont know about FF, but snipers can be effective in a clan match. Anyone got that demo of that =BC= game on rock2? That was just lol

p.s. i hate yanks
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:17 PM   #173
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I've seen demos of snipers doing very well in TFC on some CTF maps, redgiant and rock2 are the ones I remember. The problem with a sniper trying to hold of the enemy offense on most CTF maps is that when he kills them they respawn instantly only a few hops away. On redgiant or rock2 the sniper dominates his sub part of the midmap, when he picks off the enemy offence they respawn way back in their own base and have to spend quite some time to get back.

Also, who inflated Vile's ego in this thread? Can you not see the consequences of your actions?

PS. I taught COWEsium how to donkey hop

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:22 PM   #174
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I think sniper can be pretty effective on redgiant as a sort of O and D hybrid, snapping out a few O here and there, but also keeping enemy defenders from their yard and allowing their teammates to more securely enter the base at different places.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:27 PM   #175
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ye, ballz, i remember that rock2 demo. i was trying to explain the problem with snipers on clanplay def on most CTF maps as simply as possible, and yeah there are a few maps where a sniper can kill nme offy much later on in their runs (so he can do more than simply take himself and one nme offy out of the game) but these maps are v rare and you need to be a v good sniper and have v good defenders around you (so they don't let gaps appear between the layers of defence) to make it at all worthwhile.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #176
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Spys are good in clan style, clearly the guy that stated that they are only good for pubs is a ignorant.

And when it comes to pyro and sniper, both are only userfull on certain maps on certain situations, for example sniper to take a sg/fd guy, or pyro for clearing certain area/kill certain sg.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:44 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Then please, by all means, explain why snipers have never been part of the TFC league community and why they play an extremely minor role in 9v9 highlander matches.
I wouldn't know, I'm not part of that community. Been asked to join a bunch of times, but I just like jumping into games and killing.

If leagues/clans aren't using snipers for anything less then 9v9 (which I highly doubt they would cut out a whole group of characters like that) then they are stupid because its part of the game so they should make use of it. I know when I'm in a game and its only 2vs2 or 4vs4 or what ever (very rare because I like more then just 2 to 4 targets) and I take a sniper, I can almost totally shut down the other team if they don't have a sniper (or at least a spy)

I've seen myself move right upto the door of the other base and snipe from there, or even snipe from inside their base and I kept them guessing where I was the whole time though I didn't move much.

Again a decent sniper can keep the other team on their toes and at least make them think about how to get out of their base and to the other side of the map alive. And this isn't just limited to pubs either.

If you haven't seen an effective sniper then you're playing in the wrong servers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggles
The Pyro does need to get raped less by an EMP though. Insta-kill = bad.

And yeah, mappers really need to stop putting respawns 2 feet from the flag or important choke points. That shit gets old.
I play pyro a lot, hes a blast to play. It doesn't bother me that an emp owns him. Thats the chance you take for wearing all that fuel on your back.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:48 PM   #178
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I think sniper is more of a map problem. There are quite a few CTF maps that accomodate a sniper such as highflag and the maps mentioned above.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:58 PM   #179
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The sniper is great in AVD, especially in dustbowl once the gates open. His usefulness dwindles almost dramatically immediately, but most classes do once the gates open in dustbowl. After that initial burst, he's not as useful as he could be, although he is ten million times more useful in general AVD and pubs than he is in league play.
Well that used to be more true, but with the 1.1s timer on the blue pipes, the gates aren't nearly the hell they used to be for offense. You just have to spit out a few grenades before you die once or twice and that will clear out any spamming demomen (Devs: please let us select between 1.1s and 2.5!). Once things break up and D is pushed back towards the cap, sniper becomes useful for O again.

And you're right, I haven't seen any CTF games where the sniper did anything more useful than shoot a flag carrier (which only slows things down a bit).
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:35 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caesium
jiggles: if a mapper puts a respawn close to a def position, it's because he's trying to encourage the offy to pass that defender rather than just dm him. if they want to attack via that way, this greatly encourages the faster non-dm classes on offy (if you want your team to actually win rather than just think you pwn cos you take down the frontline def 100 times but never cap lol), and creates the awesome fast gameplay some of FF's maps have. offy also usually have choices of which way they take the flag, or even just how they attack as a team, that will change the proximity of the def to resups/respawns, which massively changes the effectiveness of them using a dm offy. ofc it's up to mappers to use this well to make a map that plays as they want it to, but my point is that the careful and balanced placement of resups/respawns close to certain def positions (and flag routes) is an essential tool for creating the fast non-dm orientated offy gameplay that some ppl (me) love!
Really, though, non-dm oriented offy gameplay means your offense generally consists of exactly two classes: Scouts and Medics. That's ok for some maps...but not all the damn time.
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