Idea on How to Keep New Players

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

There are servers (or atleast used to be, zE's did I think) which have modded CTF so only one flag is touchable which is the red flag, and every 2 minutes or so where the offensive team have not capped, defense gains points.

Defense would score quite little if it was how long since the flag was touched, because an offensive team generally suicide run the flag and take it towards the exit a little at a time multiple times a minute

I think a good guide for 2.43 would be, every 3 minutes without a cap, defense gains 10 points. But it would need testing to get the right amount of time. Maybe 2 and a half minutes of defending. If it's 5 v 5, the 5 offensive players, if they are medics and scouts can bombard the enemy base on most maps 10+ times each in 3 minutes. So to defend that bombardment deserves 10 points. Maybe even 15 for a longer period of time, for less chance of a tied match.

I did enjoy it more with defensive scoring.. than just OvD on a CTF map. Gives defense a chance to win.

But it would be nice if it could be a toggled mode.. so if people want a full game, it can be voted or something.

Actually I originally set that up on Churchmouth's dungeon and zE liked the idea and followed suit. The idea was originally suggested by some random pubber I can't remember the name of.

I have a pretty good sense of how the maps are played and what to expect, and I actually set the points timer up pretty accurately, to the point that many times in a full 6v6 OvD game the teams were almost tied at the end.

I set it up different for most of the popular maps, and made a default of 5 points every minute. I was pretty proud of myself on how closely balanced I made the numbers but honestly it wasn't that hard.

My map suggestion just takes my modification of a regular CTF map and makes it an official map, with some extra stuff like dynamically opening different routes according to the number of players in the server. Thus eliminating the questions and sometimes confusion of players who try to touch a flag that can't be touched, then whine about it.

That's the easiest part to do for a map, the thing I would like to see the most though is a dynamic map. IMO a map just can not be balanced for a 4v4 and have it work for 11v11 or vice versa, and the only way around it that I can think of is to have alternate routes open and close depending on the number of players.

It might be confusing to play at first, but with proper signs, and notifications, and a hell of a lot of balancing issues, it might work. But I'm sure not the one to undertake that project having never made a map before and this would be a pretty complex one to make.

@episkopos - I agree man, that battlement/respawn sniping just ruins things on that map, if they want a sniper deck build one off to the side or something, just to get the sniper away from the damn respawn and all the spam that comes with it. But unfortunately anything raised with a ledge to stand on, is something a sniper will use, so it'd be tricky to change it so a sniper can't use it, but still be good to conc from

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by episkopos

That's the most annoying aspect of aardvark. There's only one ladder for offense to attack the sniper deck. In my opinion the sniper deck should be removed and the yard should be made smaller. Or at least make the deck the perfect height for spamming grenades onto.

Hmm, maybe expand the deck, and instead of a ladder, connect that side of the deck to the wall and make the other side longer with a ramp going up to it from the ground, the ramp would be facing the front of their base connected alongside the wall.

So it would be more accessible to both teams, and the ramp could also be used to trimp conc across the entire yard by the offense of either team. And, it would be good to start off bhopping at speed so slower classes could get up to.. 600 - 700+ speed to start off a bhop which would help them outmaneuver the enemy snipers fire.

[carryonplease]

I guess I am of the belief that offensive classes should only be scout, medic, spy or the occasional demo. you have classes that are specifically meant for defense and specifically meant for offense by the way they have been created since the beginning of TFC days.

Its just more fun all around trying to hit people flying around rather than it turning into some team deathmatch game, which is always does when heavy offensive classes show up. its a different skill set and its not what I play the game for.

[KubeDawg]

I'll go O Heavy if my teammate builds me a jump pad lol.

[oaties]

The reason FF is dead is because people simply do not want to play offense scout or medic. CTF is too complex for new players in comparison to AvD! You may not think so but think in the mindset of a new player. You have to worry about whether or not to play offense or defense, where to defend on defense (As most new players DO NOT KNOW THE MAPS), having the ability to stop those who have played for years which most do not, deactivating the security and actually capturing the flag.

By the time a new player deactivates the security, by the time they get back to the base it is back up. This is extremely unrewarding.

In AvD maps, blu team is ALWAYS offense and red is always defense. This is extremely simple to a new player. While on blue, kill the enemy and move the flag. While on red, kill the enemy and stop the flag from moving. Every class is effective on both teams too. A new player can easily play engineer or pyro on defense and be just as effective as a soldier. In CTF, most classes are useless on defence such as medic and scout. In AvD, a new player can even heal their own team as a medic and still feel like they are helping their team. It is just simpler for a new player to play and enjoy AvD.

Another point is that AvD is heavier on deathmatching and not movement skills unlike CTF where movement skills play a key role. In AvD you don't NEED to learn to bhop and conc to be effective; you can run up as a soldier and kill the enemy to help your team, you can stay back as a sniper and snipe to help your team. It allows people to EASE into the movement skills of FF while not feeling overwhelmed.

[AfterShock]

Yeah its a shame the split is so extreme. AvD scouts are virtually useless (except for building jumppads) and so are medics. Largely because they are the 2 classes most dependent on their secondary grenades, and in AvD you dont get any 2ndary grenades on offense.

AvD in a way is not even really playing with a full game. Without secondary grenades you're only arguably playing a subset of FF, with a subset of the functionality.

But then, in CTF, every class other than scout/medic is largely useless on offense.

So yeah, its a shame theres nothing in between. You may remember us trying to fix that with impact, genesis and fusion (AvD with concs.. kind of), but we didnt get it right first time and we havent been back to try again yet.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

But then, in CTF, every class other than scout/medic is largely useless on offense.

I disagree with this statement. While heavier classes may not be as fast, they can definitely play a support role to the lighter classes. Especially if some teamwork is involved. Meds can take a second or two to heal up the Solly/Demo/etc, and they can disrupt the defense long enough for the Scout/Medic to grab the flag and run.

[FreaK367]

Iggy has a point, sometimes if the defense has multiple Sentries or Demomen, a heavier class is needed to draw fire, and neutralize some of the defense in order to let Scouts and Medics get the flag and make their escape. Sometimes teams like to over-defend in order to make it impossible. Like having a Heavy standing on the flag, multiple Engineers and Sentries, and a couple of one click instant kill Demomen sitting in corners.

It makes it more of a challenge when a defense needs to deal with a Demoman, Soldier or Engineer attacking, otherwise it's just like a tower defense game with scout after scout getting killed.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by oaties

The reason FF is dead is because people simply do not want to play offense scout or medic.

There are a lot of reasons that ff has very few players, and this doesnt even touch base with any of them.

Advertising
Contrary to what you believe, ff is not commonly known. There are quite a few people that know about it, yes, but there are many millions more who havent a clue. Just the other day, a friend of mine was watching me play and was interested at the pace and the acrobatics that the scout can do.

Direction
New players generally come into this game having no idea what the fuck to do. It can be a confusing mess, and on top of all of that, its fast paced. And then you have people yelling in their ears because 'theyre not playing right' or 'pyro/sniper is gay'. The game needs to make more use of the hint system and maybe even the ff wiki should be in the main menu. Anything to give players information about what they should be doing or just descriptions would help. Training is a leap in this direction, a very good one at that. There are many, many moves and skills that newbies can take advantage of, and a good way to keep them involved would be to present them with knowledge of this, so that they too can practice and get good.

Balance
As of now, AvD has taken a turn for the much, much better. The other night we played anticitizen and it wasnt a cap fest, defense actually had a chance. That being said, a few pickup regulars came in and professed we change the map, to ofire ( -.- ), thats when half the server emptied. The game is in good shape with the new changes, and its a step in the right direction.

Remember, the majority of us have been playing the game since its release, and destroy any newbie that comes in. Now i know most pickup regulars wont tone it down, because half of them are sociopathic, egotistical morons (granted, not all of them, some of you fuckers are pretty cool ) but for anyone with half a brain, it does more good than harm to stop and help someone who is new, to show them the odds and ends and introduce them into the ff sensation.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

So yeah, its a shame theres nothing in between. You may remember us trying to fix that with impact, genesis and fusion (AvD with concs.. kind of), but we didnt get it right first time and we havent been back to try again yet.

My problem with those maps (now this was just my issue, can't speak for anybody else), was that every person was a danger to your "goal". There was no point in trying to single anyone out, nor was there a point in trying to support anyone on your team. Everyone could cap, and that was too overwhelming for me.

In CTF if there's a solly and a scout in my flag room, I'll kill the scout first as he is the greatest risk to the flag being moved completely out of the base, the solly would be slower and I would have a greater chance of catching him before he got too far out of the base. In those maps like impact, there was no decision to be made, everyone had to die, and there was no room for error, in CTF when your team missed a kill on the incoming, you still had a chance for a kill on the outgoing. In those maps if you missed an incoming that was it, he scored.

You tried to turn around to chase the guy that got by you but when you did that the next guy inc got by you, so all I could do was find a position, face the direction of the enemy and just stand there in hopes that I could stop someone. "Oh they scored? Oh well no point moving from this position".

In AvD maps there's only 1 thing you need to worry about on D, and that's the flag carrier, there was an easy objective. It would be like having to kill every person coming out of the gate on ksour... just too overwhelming.

Another thing I didn't care for in those maps, they were all "Indoor maps". I like space and the "open feeling" of a yard.

Again, just my own opinion on those maps, nothing more.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Another thing I didn't care for in those maps, they were all "Indoor maps". I like space and the "open feeling" of a yard.

That was my main problem with those maps, plus they felt a little less like an accomplishment. I like how the spawn moves forward after a cap in I/D or AvD, because it feels like something is being accomplished, like you're on some road to victory. Just moving to the same target over and over again feels more sterile.

[KubeDawg]

Agreed about impact. It's a beautiful map, I just don't like the game-mode style.

Flagrun is the only other map I know of with 4 flags. That is the type of gameplay I enjoy most in that type of scenario. 2 bases, 4 flags, 2 of which are neutral. I think the flagrun style is great and more maps should be made similarly.

[FreaK367]

I agree with Hammock, I don't enjoy indoor maps too much, they aren't for me, I think all maps need to have a yard or vast outdoor areas regardless of the gametype. It gives people more freedom and allows for more air-controlled movement through trimping/concing/nade jumping etc... to get around.

I also think a lot of maps need to be higher, I'm sick of concing then smacking off the top of an invisible ceiling. :/

It would be good to see more maps like Warpath actually, I'm starting to see why the Dev team think maps like Warpath are the way forward, the capture point gamemode is great, the entire team needs to attack and defend at the same time, it gets people involved and trying different classes and techniques, instead of I/D or AvD where each team has only a single purpose at one given time, either to Defend... or to Attack.

And the capture point gamemode is great for outdoors, it is popular among a lot of games as most of you probably know, and the most popular maps tend to be mainly outdoors with multiple routes to each capture point and not too many choke points, which can really slow down the pace.

Would be nice to see more maps like that.


Also, does anyone think if FF brought the Scrummage gamemode back to life, it could do well?, with the right kind of maps that are more open and interesting. It's fairly rare these days, but it's great for teaching people teamwork.

I think Territory Control could stand more of a chance with better maps.


EDIT: You could even add Territory Control as a second gamemode for Warpath, a lot of other games have multiple gamemodes for a map, Warpath is ideal for Territory Control with countdown scoring to a win.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

It would be good to see more maps like Warpath actually, I'm starting to see why the Dev team think maps like Warpath are the way forward.

Lol, we've been begging for warpath since FF's release, wasn't it Mr. Happy who originally finally started working on the map, and teasing us? It's not that the dev's are starting to think maps like warpath are the way to go. Almost everyone from TFC already knows warpath is a really great map, it's just that someone finally got around to making it.

[Dr. eXpl0si0n]

i hear ricey almost has sanctic_r done

[AfterShock]

Yeah I mean impact fusion genesis all had their issues. Like you say, they don't have anything to focus on for defense, everyone is a problem, and they needed more space. I know mushy said that fusion and genesis were designed for about 12 players so obviously they're going to feel cramped compared to something like palermo or dustbowl. Impact needed a lot more space, width, etc and yeah even so, the gametype wasn't right.

Thats why I was keen to get something like payload working, because every offense member could contribute to the progress, BUT it's clear who to focus on defense (anyone next to the payload..). It would also contain the multiple stages / progression stuff you were talking about.

We actually had some really interesting gametypes prototyped in beta. One with a payload style thing that moved 1m every time anyone touched it, and as it moved along it unlocked new routes and resupply bags. Another with a wide road which you stood on consecutive areas to capture pieces of the road further and further forwards, and both teams spawns got progressively further along the road.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

. Another with a wide road which you stood on consecutive areas to capture pieces of the road further and further forwards, and both teams spawns got progressively further along the road.

I really enjoyed this one. I think we ought to try it again with all the new stuff we have in beta and 2.43! Slowfields and laser grens on that would be great haha!

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Lol, we've been begging for warpath since FF's release, wasn't it Mr. Happy who originally finally started working on the map, and teasing us?

Nah, it goes back way farther than that:

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=119

[Jay Mofo Mills]

Well this thread is about how to keep new players:

1- I think training is fabulous. The map is beautiful and very helpful. It could go a bit further, cleaner. Here is what I mean:

It opens up and I select HW. I run forward and get switched to scout...... I wanted HW training.... Would be nice to learn about the hw specific things. Like not overheating the AC and what overpressure does. Might require a new stage and trigger_teleport but I can see some duck hunt style shooting or something to that effect. This idea can be applied to all classes. and implemented in a way that shows their intended use as well as a few easy strategies. Like detdispenser....

I truly feel though that people (or kids) nowadays don't want to have to learn anything. They want to pick up a game and play. Kill shit, DM (tf2). Not to say there isn't a learning curve- it just isn't as steep. I'm not sure how this gets players to stay. Noobs still show up and 9 times out of 10 get rocked by someone who can bhop and understands air control and weapon switching and has a config for their classes (most the community). So they play defense with the other 6 guys and get bitched at for building a 3rd sg (hypothetically of course).

I've seen plenty of new people come in, and say they really liked the game but never stuck around.... Not sure why.

I also think a lot of the community can be closed minded to noobs. The majority of the people who are still here are used to playing with the same people. And like it or not some of them are pickup people who prefer an organized-ish game rather than some retarded spamfest where 1 team caps on no defense AND has no defense. Why make an offense and a defense?

Someone in an earlier post (think it was billy) said stick to your strengths. AMEN to that.

[Dravyck]

I'll give my small thought on the matter.

I play a lot of different games. Most of them retro.

qw, qwtf, tfc, tribes, q3a, defrag, warsaw and the list goes on.

The other day I was checking out a source mod called Kreedz Climbing.

I played it a bit and went on to something else. The next day I loaded it up again and continued playing it. I realized that most of the games that I try out and come back to(key phrase right there) have some sort of training built in to the game.

Every game that I've tried that has no training will not hold my attention. Reason being(in the multiplayer FPS genre) I jump right into a server and am playing with guys that have been playing the game for a while, sometimes years. I get stomped on, or the movement system is awkward and I have absolutely ZERO fun, and then I dump it.

On the other hand, every game that I've played that has an in depth, interactive training mode(think QuakeLive) I've stuck around and tried to learn. I'm not out there in the middle of a server trying to learn while getting dominated every 10 seconds. I'm learning at my own pace, and I can see the progression through the training program.

The new training program you guys implemented is an outstanding step in the right direction, but we need more of it. Something like what Jay described is a great idea.

We really are coming close to perfecting the balance of the game. In the mean time our community needs to start advertising and welcoming the newbies that join our servers. I was playing Tribes 2 the other day and realized that during non-peak hours they had about 5 times as many playing than we do during peak hours. It's a testament to their community and how willing they are to welcome new players and teach them the game. It's something that hopefully we can emulate.