Skimming Momentum Theory

[Circuitous]

So you're proposing a non-percentage cap?

Interesting enough.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

So you're proposing a non-percentage cap?

Interesting enough.

Yes. Levels the playing field while still allowing lighter classes to obtain speed faster than heavier classes. This would also compliment the removal of skimming.

[fireb0rn]

Originally Posted by Credge

O in this is insanely fast and, because of man cannons and medic packs, they can now use heavier classes with more than full health and full grenades fighting against those same classes that are going to have normal health and low grenades.

Make the BHop hard cap the same with all classes and make it faster to reach that cap with lighter classes and slower to reach that cap with heavier classes. This way, those classes can benefit from the cap on defense but not be overpoweringly fast.

hm

so, for example, soldier, hw etc receives a lesser speed boost from airstrafing, but has the same bhop speed as the scout? or could it be modified to be speed gain from all sources?

because with the jump pads wouldn't that just mean that scouts and heavy classes could basically reach the enemy base at the same time, since they would essentially reach the bhop cap immediately?

either way, a good idea that should be looked at. though I'm not quite sure about it yet.

[Dr.Satan]

I'm not really fond of a non-percentage cap...I think that heavier classes and lighter classes should not be able to reach the same speeds, regardless of how long it takes for each to reach it...

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I'm not really fond of a non-percentage cap...I think that heavier classes and lighter classes should not be able to reach the same speeds, regardless of how long it takes for each to reach it...

Yeah, I pretty much disagree completely with everything Credge said... but I'm not willing to type out the reasons right now. Go go action caesium and Circ's suggestion!

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I'm not really fond of a non-percentage cap...I think that heavier classes and lighter classes should not be able to reach the same speeds, regardless of how long it takes for each to reach it...

Then you're left with an unbalance. BHopping in FF is a temporary speed boost and isn't required in the slightest (Conc, and simply jump a few times in a straight line and then turn slightly while your conc primes and goes off again).
BHopping in TFC is a requirement for both O and D. This simply isn't the case in FF.

If you look at the situation, all of it, you'll notice that some of the things that were designed to make BHop easier are not necessary and simply make skimming even easier. One of the things I'm talking about is the quake-style jumping mechanic. Cool, I can hold jump while in the air and jump again when I land. This makes BHopping easier!

Well, all it does is widen the range in which you can press jump which makes BHopping easier in the timing department. It, however, makes skimming incredibly easy. A player can maintain his conc-jump speed without BHopping for 6-8 jumps depending on the conc.

The other part of the situation is that only two classes can benefit from this. By leveling the playing field (removing the %'ge based cap as well as making certain armor classes take longer to gain speed) you do 2 things:

1. Further separate the line between O and D (A GOOD THING).

2. Level the playing field.

3. Make BHop an important skill.

To give scout a purpose, that doesn't revolve around him building something, give him a higher cap than the others. This way, he'll gain BHop speed faster than the others as well as having a higher cap than the others.

This does a fewthings when combined with the removal of skimming.

1. Gives the scout a purpose.

2. Makes the offense require more skill than "Prime conc, line up with the flag, run straight, when conc goes off press and hold jump" stuff we're seeing now.

3. Brings back the core of what made TFC offense legendary; the skill required to do well.

4. Makes the defense able to get back to their spots on larger maps (session, as an example) and allows for maps where the defense doesn't spawn right next to the flag to be playable like they were in TFC.

Currently, BHopping is absolutely redundant. The D can't reach the speeds required for it to be of any use, offensive classes don't need it (either through being able to skim through places where BHopping would be required or through having insane DM ability).

To be honest, the man cannon does the same thing that this will except that this requires some form of skill and isn't as fast as the jump pad (now does it send heavies flying at the same rate as scouts).

Edit: Another issue is that people only compare the speeds of the TFC scout to the FF scout claiming that the FF scout is faster. This is true. However, the slower the class is, the slower it is, comparatively, to its TFC counterpart. Base run speeds may be higher, but the BHop run speeds for all of the classes, besides the scout, are slower.

Even further, the gap between top speed and base speed is much smaller than in TFC. This is why BHoping doesn't really have much of a purpose. The %age of increase of BHopping is redundant .

[Dr.Satan]

I agree with the removal or nerf at least of skimming, but your reasonings behind the non-percentage based bhop I completely disagree with. Don't really have time to go into it, but that's my opinion...will later I'm sure.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I agree with the removal or nerf at least of skimming, but your reasonings behind the non-percentage based bhop I completely disagree with. Don't really have time to go into it, but that's my opinion...will later I'm sure.

Please do, because you're essentially rejecting any sort of movement boost to the heavier classes. I.E. the same thing that was done in 2.0.

[Circuitous]

I just did some hunting around and... well, actually, FF class speeds are exactly the same as TFC class speeds.

TFC levels:
Scout: 400
Sniper: 300
Soldier: 240
Demoman: 280
Medic: 320
Heavy: 230
Pyro: 300
Spy: 300
Engineer: 300

This must have changed in 2.0 and I just paid no attention.

At any rate... I don't entirely see how a flat bhop cap genuinely levels the playing field. It further separates O and D, yes, but now D suddenly gets a way bigger advantage for the same amount of effort.

I think the problem here, reading over your post again, is that you're entirely missing the point of this thread.

Current FF bhopping is redundant. Yes. That's what we're fixing. With a higher bhop cap, there's more reason to use unassisted bhop. With reduced or removed skimming, there's even more reason to use unassisted bhop as opposed to concs and skimming for building speed.

But giving everyone the same bhop cap doesn't help anything. Really, it's not much different from having no bhop cap at all, except that having no bhop cap is an even greater reward to skill - in fact, skill is the only factor with an uncapped bhop.

But giving everyone a 700 cap just limits the faster classes and greatly rewards the slower ones. Making it so that it's harder for slow classes to get to the cap, though, just makes it even more pointless - the ones getting the most benefit from it have to work harder to get just what they're getting now, let alone getting all the way to 700 before being hit, knocked away, stopped by an obstacle, etc., a notable exception being those classes who can propel themselves (Soldiers, Pyros, Demos) who can now readily dominate offense with one good jump, maintaining the same massive speed as lighter, weaker classes.

"But they can do that now!" A Scout still maintains speed better than any heavier class with current skimming. If the cap is implemented the way it's been discussed, but every class has the same cap... well, what purpose does the Scout serve anymore? Sure, his boosting method doesn't hurt him, but a rocketed Soldier is still tougher than a Scout, with way more firepower.

Giving everyone a percentage cap, however, and letting them all achieve speed equally quickly, means that it's still more beneficial to go with the faster classes - you can't maintain conc speed down a long hallway anymore, but you're still faster than every other class. Why else would you pick a fast class?

[fireb0rn]

Originally Posted by Credge

1. Further separate the line between O and D (A GOOD THING).

2. Level the playing field.

3. Make BHop an important skill.

I think that a solution to #1 and #2 (I think #1, though I'm not completely sure what you mean) would be in the reduction to or removal of skimming, not in a hard bhopping cap.

A percentage-based bhop cap (a higher one than currently) would take care of #3 for both offense and defense.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Don't really have time to go into it, but that's my opinion...will later I'm sure.

...looks like circ beat me to it.

Everything the last 2 posts detail.

[levtastic]

It's more about the push that we're getting off explosions. imo.

I came up behind rodox (sexy) as a soldier, him engy. chasing him down the
2mesa3 hall off the batts we were both at the Hall ent. I shot him with a sexy rocket, he gets this huge fucking increase of speed flying down the hall and into the FR instantly (I get angry). So there I am rjing like a mad man down the hall just to catch up after he does some damage in the FR to kill him. Another time, I come out of the spawn and theirs rodox coming up the hall, he turns around, I go up into the RR. RJing around and hitting the ramps so I can fly around the RR giving me this huge speed advantage to basically play the whole room instead of getting back to my position (in TFC if you weren't there, in your position, you're about to get capped on) Right RJing gives you momentum and that speed increase, so there was rodox, bhopping (lol u slow lol) I stalked his ass and owned it, humped his corpse, went back to the flag room.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but It's not right

just giving examples I guess.

bobbylight.

[KubeDawg]

I like the theory from the OP, but I don't think a hard cap is necessary at all. I think there should certainly be a higher soft cap percentage, AKA, if you conc straight into a ramp and bhop down that ramp, you still get the trimp, but you wouldn't o as fast as it currently is set to.

Right now, isn't it 1000 speed cap? I think the current proposed speed cap for the scout is 720, or 1.8% speed reduction. Why not test it with less extreme changes such as maybe setting it to 2.25 instead of 2.5. Then, raise the percentage of speed you lose for the soft cap(not sure what its set to now), and test that way.

If I'm a scout, I'm almost ALWAYS going about 1500 constant speed, even in a lot of places in the enemy base. Causing me to slow down to less than half my speed when I land is just bad...

For scout, my ideal settings would be 2500 max speed, hard cap for bhop to be set to 1000 at MOST, and increase the bhop soft cap from 65% to 75% reduction so you come down to the max bhop speed faster. Once you're at that bhop speed, then you maintain that speed, even without a continuing air strafe.

So basically, as a scout, it'd be 2500(10%) in the air maximum, 1000(2.25%) when you first land, 750(1.875%), 562.5(1.4%), then whatever the max soft cap is normally, I think it's like 480???

As it is, you have TONS of time to stay above the soft bhop cap and that IS an issue, but if you brought the precentage UP for the speed reduction to say, 75%, it'd give the defense much more of a chance to adapt, and still make the offensive players happy.

Hard cap is not the answer, because I am not going to enjoy myself going from a standard 1500 speed to 720 speed every time I conc. That's just not going to do it for me.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

I just did some hunting around and... well, actually, FF class speeds are exactly the same as TFC class speeds.

TFC levels:
Scout: 400
Sniper: 300
Soldier: 240
Demoman: 280
Medic: 320
Heavy: 230
Pyro: 300
Spy: 300
Engineer: 300

This must have changed in 2.0 and I just paid no attention.

At any rate... I don't entirely see how a flat bhop cap genuinely levels the playing field. It further separates O and D, yes, but now D suddenly gets a way bigger advantage for the same amount of effort.

I think the problem here, reading over your post again, is that you're entirely missing the point of this thread.

Current FF bhopping is redundant. Yes. That's what we're fixing. With a higher bhop cap, there's more reason to use unassisted bhop. With reduced or removed skimming, there's even more reason to use unassisted bhop as opposed to concs and skimming for building speed.

But giving everyone the same bhop cap doesn't help anything. Really, it's not much different from having no bhop cap at all, except that having no bhop cap is an even greater reward to skill - in fact, skill is the only factor with an uncapped bhop.

But giving everyone a 700 cap just limits the faster classes and greatly rewards the slower ones. Making it so that it's harder for slow classes to get to the cap, though, just makes it even more pointless - the ones getting the most benefit from it have to work harder to get just what they're getting now, let alone getting all the way to 700 before being hit, knocked away, stopped by an obstacle, etc., a notable exception being those classes who can propel themselves (Soldiers, Pyros, Demos) who can now readily dominate offense with one good jump, maintaining the same massive speed as lighter, weaker classes.

"But they can do that now!" A Scout still maintains speed better than any heavier class with current skimming. If the cap is implemented the way it's been discussed, but every class has the same cap... well, what purpose does the Scout serve anymore? Sure, his boosting method doesn't hurt him, but a rocketed Soldier is still tougher than a Scout, with way more firepower.

Giving everyone a percentage cap, however, and letting them all achieve speed equally quickly, means that it's still more beneficial to go with the faster classes - you can't maintain conc speed down a long hallway anymore, but you're still faster than every other class. Why else would you pick a fast class?

Long post.

The problem with FF, currently, is that defensive classes are now offensive classes. There are many reasons for this, including the requirement for SG's and jump pads. Essentially, what jump pads did, was give all classes a small conc.

This was supposed to level the playing field, or something. It didn't. It made the slower classes faster, which is sort of a big deal. Coincidentally, it's the exact same thing that what I proposed did. The difference, though, is that the defense can't make use of a jump pad. There isn't a single thing the defense can do to increase how fast they move/how fast they get to where they need to go unless a scout puts one on a large map (Sessions, congestus). This, however, is a waste of time for the scout.

To make this even worse, if a scout did put a jump pad for the defense to use, the enemy offense can use it as well.

Giving everyone equal BHOP as well as making heavier classes reach that speed will level the playing field, that is, if you remove jump pads. Essentially, this does the exact same thing as the jump pad but makes it >>>even<<< for both O and D while requiring a higher level of skill.

This, coupled with the removal of skimming brings a higher level of skill required for the O (currently, what you put in is less than what you get out) while not eliminating the possibility for demos and sollies on offense. Pyros suddenly become viable on O due to backwards flame BHopping, scouts become the offense of choice due to them being able to maintain their conc speed (again, higher skill required due to higher BHop speeds), and medics share the role of D breakers with pyros, sollies, and demos.

Currently, the game is set up in such a way that the defense struggles on maps where the flag is far from the spawn. It shouldn't be possible that a solly on O can get to the enemy base before a solly on D can get to the flag room. A scout should, but not a solly.

In a 5v setup, a popular O is a demo and scout on maps like monkey. Scout puts up a jump pad, demo uses it like a conc. Demo now has one conc, 2 mirvs, and 2 normal grenades as well as 1.1 second blue pipes. He dies? He'll be back in a few seconds with 2 mirvs, 2 normal grenades, and 1.1 second blue pipes. It wouldn't be such a big problem if the D could get back faster through, say, faster BHop (or even teleports that the engy could build).

Early TFC (uncapped BHop) had equal BHop levels across the board and that is when it was most popular. I'm not proposing something that's game breaking (like the introduction of the jump pad was). I'm proposing something that levels the playing field for the O and D by maintaining the speed that the O had with jump pads (with increased skill required), making pub classes league friendly (a good pyro would become a staple on O's), and making the D faster only on maps with large bases (such as Congestus and Session... where the D is seriously borked).

Remove the jump pad.
Remove skimming.
Introduce equal BHop at, say, 600.<<<same thing as the jump pad>>>
Introduced variable speed gains based on armor class (or base armor amount, ensuring that soldiers can reach that point faster than heavies).<<<ensures that the D can get to where they need to go faster and also ensures that defensive classes can still be viable on offense>>>
Make SG's less of a requirement.
Copy and paste TFC HW.

That'd fix 99% of the problems with FF and would get me playing again. Easily.

[Circuitous]

I follow you.

It'd require a fair bit of rewriting but I can definitely see the potential in it... It's really up to Jiggles, though.

I contest the "uncapped TFC was when it was most popular" statement, though. I'm pretty sure that's patently untrue.

Kube: I've explained hard cap to you over and over, how do you still not get how it works?

[GeoKill----->]

Even Squeek try to educate him but i guess its fail in the end

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

Even Squeek try to educate him but i guess Kube is fail in the end

fixed

[tu!]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

I follow you.

It'd require a fair bit of rewriting but I can definitely see the potential in it... It's really up to Jiggles, though.

I contest the "uncapped TFC was when it was most popular" statement, though. I'm pretty sure that's patently untrue.

Kube: I've explained hard cap to you over and over, how do you still not get how it works?

who is the chick in your pic circus?

seen here before but dont remember name.

[Circuitous]

Reon Kadena

I'm gonna hafta change my user info aren't I?

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Kube: I've explained hard cap to you over and over, how do you still not get how it works?

I completely understand the hard cap. I just don't like it.