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Old 05-22-2008, 08:44 PM   #61
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Actually sabotage might not last long, either.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:46 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
I haven't played CS in forever, but if it works the way you say it does, what you're describing is a shotcoming of the game itself, not a noob tactic. When coming around a corner in a close hallway CS I would rather have an AK or a p90 rather than an AWP, it's still used for different situations. However even then, noob tactics are not ones that are effective. Binary Life's post sums it up.


You kind of summed it up yourself. If it takes pure luck, it's not a skill, it's luck. However if it's a calculated guess, like you single out an engineer that seems to be running all over the palce and bumping in the teammates, then it's a strategy. It's not a skill like having good aim, but it's a skill in terms of being able to predict enemy behavior. It's the same thing as building a dispenser in a chokepoint that you think the enemy is likely to enter in. You don't KNOW that they're going to, it's going to depend on luck whether they do or not. And as for the instances that are simply luck, well that's part of the game too. It doesn't take any skill to simply hold the release key on a MIRV before someone kills you, but that tactic can get TONS of kills, just look at an aardvark match for a demoman rushing in over and over and getting a ton of kills.

Well it's a fun tactic that got removed. Some people hate it, other people love it. I don't see what the problem is with having it as a server-side option, especially for something as controversial as it is.

The same could be said for spies sabotaging enemy SG's. That's an instance of a teammate having zero skill that the whole team pays the price on. You've already said the initial infect takes skill. It's the exact same thing:

-A medic infecting one person takes some skill
-Sabotaging a sentry takes some skill
-In both cases the team suffers from their teammates' stupidity
-In both cases the damage is done after the fact and requires no skill at that point (infection spreads, sg's auto-aim)

PLEASE explain to me how infection spreading is any different. If anything infection spreading requires more strategy since as a spy you don't control where the sg is located. I personally like nuances like this, they add more depth to the game and make it less predictable. Yes, it's partially dependent on luck, but it's also preventable through skill.
great reply..^^
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:53 PM   #63
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5LW07FTJbI

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Old 05-22-2008, 09:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
PLEASE explain to me how infection spreading is any different. If anything infection spreading requires more strategy since as a spy you don't control where the sg is located. I personally like nuances like this, they add more depth to the game and make it less predictable. Yes, it's partially dependent on luck, but it's also preventable through skill.
I can't believe you're trying to compare the random encounter of an enemy bumping into his own teammate to ultimately gain you an additional kill (or force the person to die) to the skill involved in trying to sabo an sg.

As a spy you don't control where the sg is located, then it is his responsibility to locate said sg and sneak into position to sabo it. Avoiding weary engies and sollies on their toes. The spy has to sit there for 5 seconds facing the sg, making him REALLY conspicuous, allowing more chances to be caught. Now the spy has to trigger the sabo at the right time. Triggering it immediately does not always yield best results. Communicating with his teammates goes along way (another skill). Telling his teammates that the sg IS sabo'ed and not to destroy it, rather tell him when they're incoming so he can trigger it at a better time. Sometimes the spy can sabo an sg, and get the flag out.

Killing the engy before trying to sabo the sg doesn't always work either. If the engy is aware he'll det the sg in place and kill you in the process. So you have to watch out for that. If the spy dies before he triggers it all is lost, so after he's got it sabo'ed he stll has to stay alive long enough for it to be usefull.

There's skill involved in getting more than 1 sg at a time. Basically if the spy get's an sg sabotaged he's beat the defense that run, and deserves his reward.

Medic's could infect, die, die again, die again, and still have his original infection spreading due to the stupidity of his team. But it's not just stupidity, sometimes you're just walking around a corner and you bump. There's no skill in finding your targets. Back in TFC a medic would conc over to the enemy battlements and his first target would usually be the snipers, as offense would bump into those cockblocking whores all the time. Once they're infected they drop down or run to upper spawn, just chain infecting everyone he could. You would rarely see a medic dedicated to this run down to the basement since basement D is usually more focused and organized, they bump into eachother less and are more aware. The only real infecting in the basement was done by true offense who were trying to make a gap on the 1 or two players down there.

No the medic dedicated to the infection spreading runs around high traffic areas. They don't pick their targets, 5 defenders in one room, demo at the back of it, he's not going to try and run through the first 4 to get the prime target, he's going to just randomly try and infect as many as he can before he dies.

This has been one of the worst comparisons i've ever read, spy sabotaging sg's compared to infection spread, rofl.

*Edit* Oh! and once a spy does it once or twice, the defense is on their toes even more, making it even harder. A medic can repeatedly run in to infect with very very minimal difficulty, yet with spreading the damage can be exponential compared to an sg. 1 infect could equate to infinite kills theoretically being able to kill the same guy more than twice.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:31 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I can't believe you're trying to compare the random encounter of an enemy bumping into his own teammate to ultimately gain you an additional kill (or force the person to die) to the skill involved in trying to sabo an sg.

As a spy you don't control where the sg is located, then it is his responsibility to locate said sg and sneak into position to sabo it. Avoiding weary engies and sollies on their toes. The spy has to sit there for 5 seconds facing the sg, making him REALLY conspicuous, allowing more chances to be caught. Now the spy has to trigger the sabo at the right time. Triggering it immediately does not always yield best results. Communicating with his teammates goes along way (another skill). Telling his teammates that the sg IS sabo'ed and not to destroy it, rather tell him when they're incoming so he can trigger it at a better time. Sometimes the spy can sabo an sg, and get the flag out.

Killing the engy before trying to sabo the sg doesn't always work either. If the engy is aware he'll det the sg in place and kill you in the process. So you have to watch out for that. If the spy dies before he triggers it all is lost, so after he's got it sabo'ed he stll has to stay alive long enough for it to be usefull.

There's skill involved in getting more than 1 sg at a time. Basically if the spy get's an sg sabotaged he's beat the defense that run, and deserves his reward.

Medic's could infect, die, die again, die again, and still have his original infection spreading due to the stupidity of his team. But it's not just stupidity, sometimes you're just walking around a corner and you bump. There's no skill in finding your targets. Back in TFC a medic would conc over to the enemy battlements and his first target would usually be the snipers, as offense would bump into those cockblocking whores all the time. Once they're infected they drop down or run to upper spawn, just chain infecting everyone he could. You would rarely see a medic dedicated to this run down to the basement since basement D is usually more focused and organized, they bump into eachother less and are more aware. The only real infecting in the basement was done by true offense who were trying to make a gap on the 1 or two players down there.

No the medic dedicated to the infection spreading runs around high traffic areas. They don't pick their targets, 5 defenders in one room, demo at the back of it, he's not going to try and run through the first 4 to get the prime target, he's going to just randomly try and infect as many as he can before he dies.

This has been one of the worst comparisons i've ever read, spy sabotaging sg's compared to infection spread, rofl.

*Edit* Oh! and once a spy does it once or twice, the defense is on their toes even more, making it even harder. A medic can repeatedly run in to infect with very very minimal difficulty, yet with spreading the damage can be exponential compared to an sg. 1 infect could equate to infinite kills theoretically being able to kill the same guy more than twice.
The only thing wrong with this reply is that the d is not just going to let you waltz in and start infecting..this is why infecting is tricky. And why it should be returned to its TFC state. I know there are many who say they dont like it, it is annoying to defenses...i understand that. But, really it adds a little something of interest to the battles that occur in the enemy flagroom. Just my humble opinion. At least in public servers anyway. I figure that it makes the D's aim a little sharper cuz they know if they dont take out that medic and quick, somethings going to happen....how would you say, it adds a wrinkle..an element of depth if you will..these types of things are why people still play TFC...after 10 years. Say what you want about TFC being dead, but people are still playing it. Even if they are noobs, who cares..its still people who are playing that could become new players of FF..
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #66
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Quote:
Actually sabotage might not last long, either.
Well shit, that backfired on me. I was using that as an example of something else cool that has similar dynamics to infection spreading, not as a supporting argument to remove that TOO. Seriously, what's the incentive to remove fun features like this? Wouldn't keeping them as server side options satisfy both sides? There are already servers that advertise "clan rules" in the name, this wouldn't be much different.

Quote:
I can't believe you're trying to compare the random encounter of an enemy bumping into his own teammate to ultimately gain you an additional kill (or force the person to die) to the skill involved in trying to sabo an sg.
Good thing that's not what I'm doing then huh? I'm comparing it against the trying to infect an enemy unit. An alert engineer makes it hell for spies to try and sabotage the sg. An infecting medic doesn't have much of a chance against an alert player, which is why I don't think this is even much of an issue for something like clan play. Now a spy can EASILY sabotage a clueless engineer's sg, just as a medic can easily infect a clueless enemy. With the ass-tastic melee hit detection of FF, it's not the same walk in the park it was in TFC.

You're providing a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'm in no way suggesting sabotaging doesn't take a lot of skill, I'm saying I think your impression of there being no skill involved with the medic is founded on a false understanding of the tactic.

Quote:
No the medic dedicated to the infection spreading runs around high traffic areas. They don't pick their targets
See right here you're projecting your own impression of the medic and completely ignoring what I said about the tactics involved. That's like me saying spies never communicate with their team and always sabotage as soon as they can. That's mostly what I see, but I don't assume that's what all spies do. That's like saying all demomen do is pipe the spawn instead of the flag. I think you're relying too much on your assumptions about what other players will do.

Quote:
This has been one of the worst comparisons i've ever read, spy sabotaging sg's compared to infection spread, rofl.
Okay, "rofl", that makes you sound like you're making a legitimate point. And yeah it's the worst comparison you've ever read, that's why I leave a list of logical backing arguments and similarities.

Quote:
Oh! and once a spy does it once or twice, the defense is on their toes even more, making it even harder. A medic can repeatedly run in to infect with very very minimal difficulty, yet with spreading the damage can be exponential compared to an sg. 1 infect could equate to infinite kills theoretically being able to kill the same guy more than twice.
Yeah that might be true if no one on the team decided to switch to medic. Just like sabotaging an sg wakes the team up, so does getting infected. An enemy medic healing infections makes infecting even more worthless than trying to re-sabotage. In fact an enemy medic can discourage the behavior entirely forcing new tactics. This comes to the strategy again. If you infect at the right timing, before the enemy decides to get a medic, it can be more effective than starting it right from the get-go.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:02 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Well shit, that backfired on me. I was using that as an example of something else cool that has similar dynamics to infection spreading, not as a supporting argument to remove that TOO. Seriously, what's the incentive to remove fun features like this? Wouldn't keeping them as server side options satisfy both sides? There are already servers that advertise "clan rules" in the name, this wouldn't be much different.
Because game elements that depend more on a lack of skill on the part of your enemies than your own skill are not good things.

It basically makes newb Engineers worse than having no teammate at all, and that shouldn't happen.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Well shit, that backfired on me. I was using that as an example of something else cool that has similar dynamics to infection spreading, not as a supporting argument to remove that TOO. Seriously, what's the incentive to remove fun features like this? Wouldn't keeping them as server side options satisfy both sides? There are already servers that advertise "clan rules" in the name, this wouldn't be much different.

Good thing that's not what I'm doing then huh? I'm comparing it against the trying to infect an enemy unit. An alert engineer makes it hell for spies to try and sabotage the sg. An infecting medic doesn't have much of a chance against an alert player, which is why I don't think this is even much of an issue for something like clan play. Now a spy can EASILY sabotage a clueless engineer's sg, just as a medic can easily infect a clueless enemy. With the ass-tastic melee hit detection of FF, it's not the same walk in the park it was in TFC.

You're providing a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'm in no way suggesting sabotaging doesn't take a lot of skill, I'm saying I think your impression of there being no skill involved with the medic is founded on a false understanding of the tactic.

See right here you're projecting your own impression of the medic and completely ignoring what I said about the tactics involved. That's like me saying spies never communicate with their team and always sabotage as soon as they can. That's mostly what I see, but I don't assume that's what all spies do. That's like saying all demomen do is pipe the spawn instead of the flag. I think you're relying too much on your assumptions about what other players will do.

Okay, "rofl", that makes you sound like you're making a legitimate point. And yeah it's the worst comparison you've ever read, that's why I leave a list of logical backing arguments and similarities.

Yeah that might be true if no one on the team decided to switch to medic. Just like sabotaging an sg wakes the team up, so does getting infected. An enemy medic healing infections makes infecting even more worthless than trying to re-sabotage. In fact an enemy medic can discourage the behavior entirely forcing new tactics. This comes to the strategy again. If you infect at the right timing, before the enemy decides to get a medic, it can be more effective than starting it right from the get-go.
I'm saying the spreading of infection from contact of teammates requires no skill. I never said the act of infecting one target didn't... infact..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
The initial infect takes skill, you have to get close to perform the action. So in answer to the original question of this thread, no I don't think someone completely focusing on infecting anyone and everyone in the base is unsportsmanlike because now it takes skill for each and every infect. Before the removal of spreading, yes it was very very unsportsmanlike.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuitous
It basically makes newb Engineers worse than having no teammate at all, and that shouldn't happen.
Well I usually try to watch it for them when that happens, like piping the sentry. I understand your logic though, but I have to say if you go that route, you really need to add more fun stuff to compensate for what's being taken away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I'm saying the spreading of infection from contact of teammates requires no skill.
I understand, and I'm saying an SG auto-aiming on the enemy requires no skill either. It took skill for that to happen in the first place, but it took skill for the medic to infect in the first place too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I never said the act of infecting one target didn't... infact..
I know, I acknowledged that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
You've already said the initial infect takes skill.
But then you later said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
There's no skill in finding your targets.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:39 PM   #70
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i try not to knee jerk too much here, but if sabotage is removed, this game is pretty much dead to me.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
I understand, and I'm saying an SG auto-aiming on the enemy requires no skill either. It took skill for that to happen in the first place, but it took skill for the medic to infect in the first place too.
I agree the auto aim of the sg takes no skill, but it takes skill and knowledge of the engy player to place his sg in appropriate spots and perhaps move his sg as nescessary, and in keeping it up. It also takes a lot of skill to sabo an sg with good defense in place.

Infecting takes as much skill as hitting an enemy with a crowbar.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Circuitous
Because game elements that depend more on a lack of skill on the part of your enemies than your own skill are not good things.

It basically makes newb Engineers worse than having no teammate at all, and that shouldn't happen.
Circ, a game is a game. Changing or removing something just cuz there are people who find it annoying or dont like it, is just pandering. The dev teams job is to put a product out that all will enjoy. Just cuz somebody hasnt learned what you know about the game yet, and is hurting their respective team doesnt mean you take it out of the game. Thats the time when someone teaches them what is or what isnt good. What about learning curve?? What about depth?? You cant tell me that infection spreading doesnt affect the game, which adds depth. As earlier stated, people sometimes enjoyed that part of TFC, and i think that by removing it, you have taken a slice of what people enjoyed about that game away.


As a matter of fact, i would be curious to see how many would be interested in trying to have it (infection spreading) put back in.. Someone in an earlier post, reacted to my comment about infectionspreading and its relation to pubs and clanners. I would be willing to bet you that the lines between those who wanted it and those who dont, would be split along those lines. I dont know for sure mind you but i have a suspicion they would be..I dont want to be an argumentative ass, but i think if we have chance to bring some people back into the FF fold, this might be just a small little thing that would help? Something i would be willing to holler for..Notice that i said small because i know that infection spreading wouldnt be a huge people bringer..if i thought that, id have to have my head examined..but i do believe there are folks that do miss that about TFC and would like to see it in FF again..if indeed it was in there at one point.

Last edited by myersjr; 05-22-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:30 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myersjr
Circ, a game is a game. Changing or removing something just cuz there are people who find it annoying or dont like it, is just pandering. The dev teams job is to put a product out that all will enjoy.
Point destroyed, please shut the fuck up.
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:11 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Private_Joker

Effective does not suffice good.
Let's go back to the AWP in Counter-Strike, since it's served as the unfair weapons whipping boy for ages:
typically in a public server, an AWP is answered with another AWP. That AWP is in turn answered with a third AWP, and it escalates until you have 5 or 6 AWPers and 6 other well-meaning players getting their rectums blasted into whiny mash.

The same pattern is observable with all unfair weapons; in fact, it's what defines an unfair weapon: any weapon that is so effective that use of other weapons is all but futile. I'm not sure medkit meets that definition well enough, but it's so effective and so frustrating that many players are content to disapprove of it anyway.

-Joker
In a real game of CS you would likely not be able to afford that many AWPs. You keep playing on those servers with 16,000 money and what do you expect? The AWP plays its role in CS and its downfall is that it is expensive.

Regardless to say that you counter an awp with an awp would really depend on the map as thats not always the case.

In other words... quit crying about the AWP.

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Old 05-23-2008, 12:27 AM   #75
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Hey guys, I have aids. Lets make a 4 page discussion about it.

Do it.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:33 AM   #76
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Hammock: The point here being is that even if sabotaging sg's require more skill than infecting, it's the same principle: A teammate with zero skill can hurt the team which in turn can make the dynamics of the game more interesting.

myersjr: I doubt the devs like being told what their job is, this is a volunteer thing afterall.

Circuitous: I still don't understand why people seem to be opposed to having things like this as a server side option, to me that seems like a win-win scenario. Then people who want it can have it, and those that don't, won't have to AND you won't have to see people complaining on the forums like this over making decisions on controversial gameplay elements.


I'm curious what other people's opinions are, but for me personally I like almost every extra option and nuance the game has. I've liked almost every new option that's been added, and have been rather negative towards every option taken away. Here's a quick list:

Good stuff:
-Cloaking
-sg sabotage
-pyro damage combos
-jump pads (overall cool, though AvD needs help as a result)
-pyro hovering (see above)
-a 1.1s timer on blue pipes
-removing the overheating limitation on hwguy
-throwable medkits

Not good stuff
-caltrops removal (kind of indifferent, but thought it was kind of nice to have)
-removing option for 2.5s timer on blue pipes
-removing infection spreading
-removing hwguy's effective range

I guess I'm in the minority, but I've never been "oh thank god they got rid of that" every time an option gets removed from FF. Unless it's a total gameplay breaker, I see more options only as a good thing, it's exactly what adds depth to a game like this as opposed to being a clone of countless other mods.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:40 AM   #77
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With regards to making something a server-side option:

There are like, what, five active servers? I can't imagine anyone going "Yes, I want idiots and griefers to be able to spread infections to their teammates on my server," and even if they did, it serves only to confuse new players and further divide the community.

Infection spreading sucked and was removed. We seriously don't need to carry this on.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:23 AM   #78
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Hey guys, I have aids. Lets make a 4 page discussion about it.

Do it.
I'm very sorry to hear that but at least you can't spread it anymore eh!

EDIT: darn...thread was closed
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