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Old 05-21-2008, 08:35 PM   #41
chilledsanity
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If anyone out there finds getting infected by a teammate fun, please speak up.
I thought it was awesome, it added more depth to the game. It also made medic a more viable option for defense. If an enemy medic is infecting one guy, big deal. If he's infecting half your team, your team needs a medic too. On one or two occasions it also helped me identify spies since they would run right past us and not be infected.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
If he's infecting half your team, your team needs a medic too.
At first that sounds fun, but consider how much damage the Medic has done before the infected team has time to react. Fortress is volatile enough that a hit like that could easily turn around the momentum of a match and win it for the medspammer's team. Hence, it's a popular cheap last-ditch effort for nubs.

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Originally Posted by chilledsanity
On one or two occasions it also helped me identify spies since they would run right past us and not be infected.
One or two occasions of that isn't quite integrated gameplay..

-Joker
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Klute
Playing solly in TFC, infecting medics quickly found others as they were fragged before they even came close, as for other team members infecting me, it was just a quick suicide and back to bizz. Not that effective imo.

However, a team member infecting spawn on purpose was annoying, and was quickly awarded with a ban for doing so as were medics that camped the spawn door. As long as I was admin anyways.
One thing i would say, i very rarely camp. On occasion, when i thought it was funny i would, but in semi-serious/serious competition..no way..I believe in certain etiquette that exists in whatever situation you're in. If your competing..gotta be a bit more serious. If you're pubbing, you can be a bit more, shall i say.."relaxed", and more intent on having fun. Which, dare i say it, sometimes means being infection focused. Yes, to the clanner, its annoying as hell, but, its part of the game. There have been times, when i knew i wasnt getting nowhere near the flag cuz of maybe the sniper and the solly under the batts in 2fort, so i went after the sniper first. If that sucker misses, he's getting some luv..and a nade to go with it. then, im going after the d in the ramp room..cause as much havoc as i can..
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by myersjr
One thing i would say, i very rarely camp. On occasion, when i thought it was funny i would, but in semi-serious/serious competition..no way..I believe in certain etiquette that exists in whatever situation you're in. If your competing..gotta be a bit more serious. If you're pubbing, you can be a bit more, shall i say.."relaxed", and more intent on having fun. Which, dare i say it, sometimes means being infection focused. Yes, to the clanner, its annoying as hell, but, its part of the game. There have been times, when i knew i wasnt getting nowhere near the flag cuz of maybe the sniper and the solly under the batts in 2fort, so i went after the sniper first. If that sucker misses, he's getting some luv..and a nade to go with it. then, im going after the d in the ramp room..cause as much havoc as i can..
This has got nothing to do with "Clanners" yeesh, where did this come from anyways? Thinking it was removed because the clanning scene didn't like it. In a clan match people rarely take the time to infect.

The decision to remove it was based strongly on the fact it takes no skill for the infecting medic to have it spread to some wandering bafoon that by happen stance ran into one of his own teammates. Again I repeat "NO SKILL" is involved for infection spreading.

The ONLY person who finds infection spreading "fun and cool" is the infector, this is not limited to clanners, or just pubbers. Everyone! finds it annoying to be running out of your respawn only to be infected by some guy that doesn't know how to get out of the base once he's infected, or by some guy spreading it on purpose.

How often have you ever heard a pubber (strictly a pubber) go "Hey omg this is awesome I just got infected by my own teammate", without a huge side of sarcasm behind it.

Since spreading has been removed it's been great, you don't fear your own teammates, and it's dwindled down the people who are persistent enough to keep this same strategy. Now only the truely lamest people run around the base trying to infect and run, instead of just anyone who's had a bad day and feels like taking it out on random people in game.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:10 AM   #45
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Fortress is volatile enough that a hit like that could easily turn around the momentum of a match and win it for the medspammer's team. Hence, it's a popular cheap last-ditch effort for nubs.
This line of reasoning bugs me, I see it all the time. A weapon or tactic is only for noobs if it's not very effective. However if the tactic causes the team to WIN THE GAME, then it's anything but a noob tactic.

Personally I don't think infection is a high level tactic, because a competent team can counter it. But if you're arguing that it cripples teams when executed at the right moment, that means it's skillfuly done. Noob tactics AREN'T effective, if a tactic IS effective, it's a GOOD one.

Quote:
The ONLY person who finds infection spreading "fun and cool" is the infector
Well I don't like being on fire, why don't we remove that? Or how about getting shot by sg's? Let's remove them too! Or MIRVS, don't like dying from them either!

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Since spreading has been removed it's been great, you don't fear your own teammates
So should we remove spies while we're at it?
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well I don't like being on fire, why don't we remove that? Or how about getting shot by sg's? Let's remove them too! Or MIRVS, don't like dying from them either!

So should we remove spies while we're at it?
Fire doesn't spread on contact, it's a direct result of engaging an ENEMY.

Being killed by sg's, again a direct result of engaging an enemy

Being killed by mirvs, again a direct result of an enemy

You're not fearing your teammates with spys, you're fearing a spy in disguise, a direct result of enemy.

Bumping into random_infected_noob001 in respawn, not a direct result of engaging an enemy. It took this enemy no skill to infect you in respawn, just pure luck and chance that the person he infected is going to run around and spread the infection... no kill from enemy required.

How can anyone possibley compare direct engagements with the enemy with random chance of bumping into one's own teammate?

There's no need to argue this anyways, it's been removed and was one of the best decisions made by the devs.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:57 AM   #47
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what joyous fun it was during those pre-patch times where people would go into spawn while infected because they thought the backpacks would heal them.

just like many of you, i would suicide. bind mouse3 kill.
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:07 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Private_Joker
All of CS is unsportsmanlike, especially the AWP. That game is just broken.

-Joker
Let's not start discussing that again.. To reply to Skanky: demoman respawn spamming is a non-intended feature.. AWP's/infecting are, correct? This really depends on what one's opinion about what "being sportsmanlike" is.
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:45 PM   #49
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Fortress is volatile enough that a hit like that could easily turn around the momentum of a match and win it for the medspammer's team. Hence, it's a popular cheap last-ditch effort for nubs.
If you're the one that can't play medic or see that coming then, aren't you the noob?

I hate this mentality that if someone does something that kills you easily, it's because they're a noob, and not because they just thought of it first.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Personally I don't think infection is a high level tactic, because a competent team can counter it. But if you're arguing that it cripples teams when executed at the right moment, that means it's skillfuly done. Noob tactics AREN'T effective, if a tactic IS effective, it's a GOOD one.

Effective does not suffice good.
Let's go back to the AWP in Counter-Strike, since it's served as the unfair weapons whipping boy for ages:
typically in a public server, an AWP is answered with another AWP. That AWP is in turn answered with a third AWP, and it escalates until you have 5 or 6 AWPers and 6 other well-meaning players getting their rectums blasted into whiny mash.

The same pattern is observable with all unfair weapons; in fact, it's what defines an unfair weapon: any weapon that is so effective that use of other weapons is all but futile. I'm not sure medkit meets that definition well enough, but it's so effective and so frustrating that many players are content to disapprove of it anyway.

-Joker
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Private_Joker

Effective does not suffice good.
Let's go back to the AWP in Counter-Strike, since it's served as the unfair weapons whipping boy for ages:
typically in a public server, an AWP is answered with another AWP. That AWP is in turn answered with a third AWP, and it escalates until you have 5 or 6 AWPers and 6 other well-meaning players getting their rectums blasted into whiny mash.

The same pattern is observable with all unfair weapons; in fact, it's what defines an unfair weapon: any weapon that is so effective that use of other weapons is all but futile. I'm not sure medkit meets that definition well enough, but it's so effective and so frustrating that many players are content to disapprove of it anyway.

-Joker
Thats what im saying..it may not be your weapon of choice, but if you have it and you can get close enough, why not use it?? taking it (team infection) out of the game just took a facet of the game away. Thats all that did..Like it or not, it was something that some people did enjoy about tfc..knowing that even if you couldnt kill the enemy outright, you still had a chance to affect them one way or the other..even if they suicided..you still found a way to take them out or make them leave their position..even if it was only for a few seconds or whatever. I personally would love to see it put back in. As stated in an earlier post, im not gonna purposely go and try to infect, but if i cant kill them directly, i would like the opportunity to spread some pain..lol
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:05 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hammock
Fire doesn't spread on contact, it's a direct result of engaging an ENEMY.
This isnt entirely true is it?? From what i understand, if you happen to accidentally walk over a burning ragdoll/body you catch on fire dont you??
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:32 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by myersjr
This isnt entirely true is it?? From what i understand, if you happen to accidentally walk over a burning ragdoll/body you catch on fire dont you??
It doesn't pass from one player to the next to the next to the next and last indefinately until cured or dead.

You can actually run to respawn to heal yourself after being burned. And splash fire damage (even running over a napalm nade only momentarily) does not produce the damage nescessary to run to respawn afterwards.

I'll run through napalm on the way to enemy base and can still manage to get the flag and back to my base.

If I'm infected (especially if im scout) by my own teammate in respawn chances are I'll die before I even get to the enemy flag.

Please explain to me how you can possibley think the spread of infection takes skill. I'm curious how someone actually rationalizes the randomness of bumping into your own teammate in respawn to become infected takes any bit of skill at all.

The initial infect takes skill, you have to get close to perform the action. So in answer to the original question of this thread, no I don't think someone completely focusing on infecting anyone and everyone in the base is unsportsmanlike because now it takes skill for each and every infect. Before the removal of spreading, yes it was very very unsportsmanlike.

That said, even every other form of irritating game play (demo piping respawn..etc) still takes the presense and action of that player to perform it, wherease again infection spreading did not, you just had to infect one guy and let luck take it's course.

Hell even the cloaked spy standing infront of the button/flag is very very irritating, but it's effective and takes the action of that player to do it. Plus it takes some skill to know where and how to stand to block the guy.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:11 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Hammock
Please explain to me how you can possibley think the spread of infection takes skill. I'm curious how someone actually rationalizes the randomness of bumping into your own teammate in respawn to become infected takes any bit of skill at all.

The initial infect takes skill, you have to get close to perform the action. So in answer to the original question of this thread, no I don't think someone completely focusing on infecting anyone and everyone in the base is unsportsmanlike because now it takes skill for each and every infect. Before the removal of spreading, yes it was very very unsportsmanlike.
Correct me if im wrong, but nowhere in my post, did i say it required skill. I just said it was part of the game, that added a certain facet, be it lucky or whatever..It was in there and people had to watch out for it. To me, it made it more interesting. Just to see how it would affect the other team. Whether or not it would give the chance for the o to get in and get the flag when the d either died or suicided?? True that most would prolly suicide before they died from it or infected their team, but thats not the point. If you got O coming in the fort, and you're playing D and you're low on health or dying of aids, its gonna make it easier on the O. Am i wrong?? As many have stated before, they would suicide..no big deal. At least in FF it prolly wouldnt make a huge difference cuz the speed is so fast..but it made a difference in TFC..or considering how fast the O classes are in FF, maybe it would?? Especially with the addition of the man cannon..?? YOur thoughts Hammock??
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:40 PM   #55
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Guys, infection is not worth this much discussion.

Getting infected is annoying, getting infected by a clueless teammate is worthy of pulling your hair out, people who do nothing but infect, to the point where the only weapon they ever have out is the medkit, are obnoxious and worthy of ridicule, especially considering how ineffective it is now.

If all you're using is the medpack, I'm willing to bet money that you're only doing it as an annoyance to the other team, not because you think it's a "great, effective tactic."
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:46 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by myersjr
Correct me if im wrong, but nowhere in my post, did i say it required skill. I just said it was part of the game, that added a certain facet, be it lucky or whatever..It was in there and people had to watch out for it. To me, it made it more interesting. Just to see how it would affect the other team. Whether or not it would give the chance for the o to get in and get the flag when the d either died or suicided?? True that most would prolly suicide before they died from it or infected their team, but thats not the point. If you got O coming in the fort, and you're playing D and you're low on health or dying of aids, its gonna make it easier on the O. Am i wrong?? As many have stated before, they would suicide..no big deal. At least in FF it prolly wouldnt make a huge difference cuz the speed is so fast..but it made a difference in TFC..or considering how fast the O classes are in FF, maybe it would?? Especially with the addition of the man cannon..?? YOur thoughts Hammock??
FF is a skill based game, everything from placing an sg and keeping it up, to a demoman piping respawn is a direct reflection of someone's skill and performance. Infection spreading rely's heavily on the stupidity of other players, not the skill of the medic infecting. Ergo someone should not benefit from 0 skill occurances, and similarly a team should not be penalized from a 0 skill occurence.

The game's focus is based on what one player can directly do to another player(s), either with teamwork or solo.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:50 PM   #57
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only newbs not aware get infected by teammates.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:20 PM   #58
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What still confuses me is the fact that everyone shoots down infection only doing a timed amount of damage. Infection is a "one shot" melee kill for a medic, while all other classes require multiple hits or positioned behind.

Why not just make infection only deal 20 damage(5 Damage a tick.) and spread but only deal max 15 damage.(Three Ticks.)

This makes the medpack still a deadlier weapon than the crowbar, but prevents it from being the most abusive weapon in pub games.

For personal opinion, I love to play sniper in pubs, and I can assist pretty well in base defense, but nothing is more annoying than a dedicated medic waiting at the respawn doors to infect you then run away. Its like a frontal-backstab, zero skill, maximum annoyance.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:31 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Circuitous
Guys, infection is not worth this much discussion.

Getting infected is annoying, getting infected by a clueless teammate is worthy of pulling your hair out, people who do nothing but infect, to the point where the only weapon they ever have out is the medkit, are obnoxious and worthy of ridicule, especially considering how ineffective it is now.

If all you're using is the medpack, I'm willing to bet money that you're only doing it as an annoyance to the other team, not because you think it's a "great, effective tactic."
Circ, i think it is..just look at the variable opinions we've gotten..its alot of fun talking about it..it makes me wanna go play

I agree with circ in saying that infection is annoying. And that is precisely why i do it. If it gets under the skin of the D, ill sling that stuff. Ive seen it happen. Of course i was playing in a pub server, but those guys were so concerned with me, they forgot i had teammates. I had 3 enemies chasing me.. I swear, it was a riot..so much fun...LOL As stated before, its not my premium choice of attack. I prefer to toss a nade or use the shotty. But, if i dont shoot them and kill them and im relatively close, they will get a case of aids. Its only one piece of the puzzle.

If im playing with folks on a pub server, and i know i can sneak up on them..then, aids is served..lol It depends on what is happening with the D. If there's snipers, then you might want to figure out how to disrupt him/her. When you have maps like well and 2fort, where snipers are used in pub games, infection can really disrupt the snipers game. As we have all discovered, you wont see the sniper much in private servers/clan matches. So the need to infect doesnt arise as much. Sometimes you do stuff just cuz you can, and sometimes, you have to be more serious. I think i said this before also. Recognizing a certain etiquette that might exist in whatever server/game you're playing in goes a long way. That being said, i would throw nade, shoot, then if they aint dead..then start infecting, of course, if im still alive..thats always the variable isnt it?? NO one is just going to let you waltz up and love on em..

Last edited by myersjr; 05-22-2008 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:41 PM   #60
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Let's go back to the AWP in Counter-Strike, since it's served as the unfair weapons whipping boy for ages
I haven't played CS in forever, but if it works the way you say it does, what you're describing is a shotcoming of the game itself, not a noob tactic. When coming around a corner in a close hallway CS I would rather have an AK or a p90 rather than an AWP, it's still used for different situations. However even then, noob tactics are not ones that are effective. Binary Life's post sums it up.

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Please explain to me how you can possibley think the spread of infection takes skill.
Quote:
you just had to infect one guy and let luck take it's course.
You kind of summed it up yourself. If it takes pure luck, it's not a skill, it's luck. However if it's a calculated guess, like you single out an engineer that seems to be running all over the palce and bumping in the teammates, then it's a strategy. It's not a skill like having good aim, but it's a skill in terms of being able to predict enemy behavior. It's the same thing as building a dispenser in a chokepoint that you think the enemy is likely to enter in. You don't KNOW that they're going to, it's going to depend on luck whether they do or not. And as for the instances that are simply luck, well that's part of the game too. It doesn't take any skill to simply hold the release key on a MIRV before someone kills you, but that tactic can get TONS of kills, just look at an aardvark match for a demoman rushing in over and over and getting a ton of kills.

Quote:
Guys, infection is not worth this much discussion.
Well it's a fun tactic that got removed. Some people hate it, other people love it. I don't see what the problem is with having it as a server-side option, especially for something as controversial as it is.

Quote:
Infection spreading rely's heavily on the stupidity of other players, not the skill of the medic infecting. Ergo someone should not benefit from 0 skill occurances, and similarly a team should not be penalized from a 0 skill occurence.
The same could be said for spies sabotaging enemy SG's. That's an instance of a teammate having zero skill that the whole team pays the price on. You've already said the initial infect takes skill. It's the exact same thing:

-A medic infecting one person takes some skill
-Sabotaging a sentry takes some skill
-In both cases the team suffers from their teammates' stupidity
-In both cases the damage is done after the fact and requires no skill at that point (infection spreads, sg's auto-aim)

PLEASE explain to me how infection spreading is any different. If anything infection spreading requires more strategy since as a spy you don't control where the sg is located. I personally like nuances like this, they add more depth to the game and make it less predictable. Yes, it's partially dependent on luck, but it's also preventable through skill.
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