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Old 02-17-2008, 02:59 PM   #121
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I know you say "Clan Play is almost the same thing as League Play", but it's not. Until we get some hard stats from a FF league showing how matches turned out (what classes played O, what played D, how well they worked), there's not enough to formulate opinions.

The lot of you would feel pretty stupid if the top clan in the UGC ladder used a Pyro on O and capped plenty with it. d:

I swear that I will burn down the Internet if you ever slow this game down. Most of you were not there when the devs lowered the BHOP cap and wanted to see if we noticed it. (Basically, blind test - see if it actually matters.) The answer is yes we noticed it, and many of us (most vocally own3r, as I recall) were frustrated with the loss of speed.

I started playing TFC at Kiba|Mi6 and [SNAFU]TenchiMasaki's house (they're brothers). I was doing 1:15 K ratio O runs as Solly, I was getting whooped that bad.

Few more hours of playing, and I picked things up pretty nice. I can move a lot better now.

I get my hands on FF, and it feels great.

I try TF2, and I feel like I'm doing 1:15 O runs again.

It is my earnest hope that there are more speed-addicts out there who are sick of moving 0.5 miles per hour and want to get into more advanced gameplay. So long as they exist (and they do!), there will be a player base for FF.

All I need is a half full server, my shotgun, and a flag to cap.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:00 PM   #122
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HW's a little gettin' used to, but it's cool, you run out of ammo FAST!

Scout: I just LOVE the mancannon, I played on well and the mancannon was SO handy!

Engy: SHINY SENTRIES!

Overall:
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:58 PM   #123
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oke i'm a speedfreak scout.. I love bouncing around concing past people etc.

I miss my caltrops.. Seriously i absolutely loved them and found them very usefull. Sure they miss a lot but if they do hit a couple of times in a row

Now my comments in a completely random order:

Disclaimer: This is what i'm seeing so far i need more "skilled" peeps to play with. Because i tend to just feel godly on a pub as a scout atm.

Conc changes:
-wall friction: I LOVE YOU!
-I'm going faster or it seems like that. Makes it harder to turn in small area's. Don't know really what's the deal atm. But so far i'm concing to far really easy atm.

Jump pad:
-Limit the amount of jumps.
-MUCH smaller radius. If i want to jump past it i want to jump past it. Make it more like the sd2 cap it's nice and small and easy to miss.
-The transparant image when building seems a bit of. It's to easy to build it on an edge and see it fall down.
-Disable building pads in the enemy base? At least disable them in respawns etc.
-Needs a warning when it goes poof
-Disable the jumppad for heavy's

Soldier:
- Seems better now vs fast classes.
-I still hate getting shot and going up vertically and then falling down "slowly" The pushback effect could possibly use a speed boost?

Demo:
- A lot stronger in small area's.
-I need to check blue pipes a bit more.
-I still feel like there is a big delay on pipetraps.

Fortress Options menu:
-OMG
-WTF
-Hax!
-Much love!
-Perfect.

Sniper:
Sorry i don't care about them. I just don't see a true purpose in ctf games(especially the "clanstyle" type i prefer to play).
They will stay disabled on the USRF clanstyle server.

Bhop:
-The jumping seems to be a bit to forgiving? I have noticed myself going sideways. Need to test it a bit more maybe i'm just goofing around.

Openfire:
-If you conc in and try to throw the flag towards the lift it can hit the roof very easy and basicly get stuck or fall straigth down instead of going forward.

Speed:
- Do NOT remove the fast paced gameplay.

Shutdown2:
-Flagroom: Pyro can flame somebody who's standing on the flag from above.

Medic:
- Healing seems to work a bit better.
-Throwing med pacs is cool. Haven't found a perfect use yet.

Pyro:
- I like the "flying"
- Damage seems good.

Heavy:
- I need to play scout vs a good one...
- Newbies/nubs/noobs/etc still can't make good use of it and generally run out of ammo very fast.

Flagtoss:
-Need to test it more. I really got used to the way it was. Mid air tossing was to far but tossing it from the ground seems short now.

That's it for now i'll edit/reply after more testing
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:07 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mace
Jump pad:
-Disable the jumppad for heavy's
NO WAI!
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:45 PM   #125
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I could care less for the pub vs clan vs league stuff. I only play on public servers and I play only for fun. Thats what should be first and foremost, fun.


I like the soldier now, though I have not played him yet. I was getting tossed around a bit last night by a few and they felt much more powerful then they were and it made me want to stay away from them more.


I did a lot of demo last night and the blue pipes are a bit scary. On palerimo there was 4 or 5 people coming for the second cap point on the sea side, and until I got blown off into the sea for a nice cold swim, I was holding them off very easily.


I still think the scout nailgun needs to be fixed. It seems to push people too easily and much more then the sniper AR which should be much more powerful. I'm not sure if all nail guns are like that but its very annoying when scouts on your own team start shooting you just to annoy you and push you off a ledge.


I'm not a huge fan of concs effecting people through walls or ceilings. Specially thick stone walls and ceilings. Its too bad you can get that stuff to reflect off the walls and add more power to the conc in the direction of the reflection. That would be an interesting effect.


Again I think the scout jump pad needs to be destroyable. I think an added feature would be for a spy to come along and sabotage it so that when people hit it, they go backwards. lol

And bring back the caltrops for the scout, even though I almost never played scout, it was something I always watched out for when walking around. I wonder if its possible to do a reverse grenade timer for them. Press and release button and the caltrops are dropped right there. Press and hold the button for a few seconds and a bundle is tossed and that many seconds later the bundle opens after bouncing around a bit to where ever the scout tosses them. They could then be much more effective. But maybe no more then a 3 or 4 second hold.


I like the idea of having both buttons and the automatic sensor for the main door on well. Its the best of both worlds.


Its good to hear that the HW will not go through so much ammo in the next patch. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a little more accurate too. After all Miniguns are in reality pretty accurate. He doesn't need to be a whole lot accurate just a little, maybe bring down the spread by a quarter to a third.

Sniper full charge should go back up at least a bit. Maybe try half way between what it was and what it is now. Or maybe bring the charge time down a bit to around 3/4 or 4/5 of what it currently is. Snipers should be feared at a distance just like heavys should be feared close up. I don't mind going up against good snipers. I'm sure many people here have seen me when I'm a sniper, they know I'm good, but they also know that I don't just stick with sniper and like going up against good snipers. Heck when I'm a sniper, I like going up against 2 or 3 other snipers. Even when I am getting my butt kicked thats when I am having the most fun cause its a challenge to get them before they get me or any of my team.


I don't really do bhopping that often, its usually only to get me into the middle of things faster. I like the speed of the game currently, slowing it down would not be good over all.


The only reason I think FF doesn't have all that many people playing is because it doesn't get front page coverage on Steam. I think there is more then enough room in the community for both FF and TF2 because the games, while on the surface are similar, are 2 totally different games.

I know I do my part in telling people about FF, I tell everyone I know that plays games about FF and how fun it is.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane
Again I think the scout jump pad needs to be destroyable. I think an added feature would be for a spy to come along and sabotage it so that when people hit it, they go backwards. lol
I like the spy idea...except for the fact that a spy would be launched by it before he could do anything. Maybe some sort of grenade, specialized, to do the same thing? Maybe a second scout grenade?

The problem with making it destroyable, is that with open yards...snipers could take them out with ease. That is the reason it has a limited life-span, as opposed to being destroyable.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:04 PM   #127
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Congratulations on a much improved FF patch,up until now I have not really been taken with this mod but now you guys have put this game "ontrack" and it promises to be most enjoyable multiplayer if you continue to "hone" it little by little.

I assume your looking for fedback,so with that in mind heres mine from the few classes I've played since release...
1/Soldier actually felt great to play,weapon reg,splash damage etc. felt right.I did feel that nail grenade was a little short in duration or is that my imagination?

2/HW... tbh I thought he was next to useless in comparason to what I was use to playing,in defence I felt he didn't have much to contribute,the chain gun as mentioned by many eats ammo far too quickly,targets other than anything relatively close quaters were getting away damage free.personally I feel the power/weapon balance tfc HW had was just about right.

3/The overall feel of the game was much better but still have a tendency to think the game play is still too fast,especially the scout, that class just seems to be hyper,the skinny little devil was in and away with the flag too fast to even get a shot away at him,the ground he covers seems too much too quickly.

4/ liked the jump pad idea,could be very interesting to see how that goes in clan matches,although discovered they were a pain in the arse if a scout built in an inappropriate place especially if it was a position often seen as a defence point,was a funny thou.

Great Patch development guys ! I shall certainly be playing it more now and look forward to ongoing improvements.

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Old 02-17-2008, 06:34 PM   #128
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Amalgamation of some of the best ideas, thoughts, and concepts posted in this thread.
  • Heavy needs to eat up less ammunition or have more of it. Lower high-end cone of fire, higher low-end rate of fire.
  • Jump pad shouldn't launch until you're on the jump pad. Like, on top of it. On the launchy bit. Launches should be proportional to player speed.
  • Dispenser should give ammo faster.
  • Knickers need to come down.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:50 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Circuitous
  • Knickers need to come down.
I doubt that will happen, too many of them are bunched up.

Ya perv!
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:35 PM   #130
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Been working all this weekend so I haven't been able to play enough of the patch yet, but I've enjoyed it so far. Great job guys!
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:36 PM   #131
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Jump pads are excellent! Had some ace fun with a pair of jump pads on aardvark.
1 on balc outside spawn, 1 in midmap. Jump off first, land on second then hit the speed ramp. Wild!
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:55 PM   #132
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Good job guys, 2.0 is amazing.


I only started playing 2 days before 2.0 came out, so I didn't really notice anything. The only thing I would suggest is making it easier to build up speed with the Bhop. The only way to actually get speed going is by using a downward slope to propel you forward, or actually shooting yourself with an explosive.



With the scout's jump pad/mancannon, how about having it sensitive to ammo and rockets and stuff. How sweet would it be if you could toss a grenade on it and launch it across the map. Or pipes or ammo bags...



Other than that, great job, Fortress Forever is a quality game. And it's free.

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Old 02-17-2008, 09:10 PM   #133
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I doubt that will happen, too many of them are bunched up.

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and some of us just aren't wearing any.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:41 PM   #134
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This patch is really good, I really like the new visuals especially the grenade trails. I haven't found anything bad about this patch yet.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:47 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
A pyro can decimate a T-soldier on monkey now. He also owns demomen and HWs pretty fast. If you think he's useless on defense you haven't seen a good def pyro. Playing against Sidd42 as pyro sd2 ramp was insane. Was like playing against a soldier who never ran out of rockets. Very good defensive option in that position.
Well, we tried running pyro on offense on monkey last night (UGC and all that) and it didn't do much of, well, anything. On defense, a pyro is limited to his use of grenades. His grenades do not have the instant kill effect that, say, mirvs do so him taking grenades is a detriment to the team.

His only means of pushing a player around are his IC... something that doesn't exactly bounce people very far or has the ability to control and suppress movement.

I'll use the same argument you made for demomen below, but reverse.

I wouldn't use a single one on defense. Until I would, then he's underpowered for the role.

Offense? Maybe. Not for his killing capabilities but for the distraction he makes. However, I'd rather have a soldier or demoman on offense. MIRV's and rockets are much more attractive than everything the pyro has combined.

This is even further complimented by the fact that EMP's kill pyros outright, or damages them to the point of useless. Now with jump pads, an engineer can easily get to the other side of the map in a timely manner and dispatch any pyro on defense. Also considering that almost every defense has an engineer (or will adapt to using an engineer the second a pyro is seen) simply make the class, well, not a real choice.

Quote:
Would you use more than 1, though? If we aren't seeing 2-3 demomen defenses as standard then he probably isn't overpowered. That said, I'm gonna look into adding extra damage for direct blue hits and reducing the radius slightly for 2.1 (to encourage accuracy)
Depends on the map. The problem with the argument is that it proposes that until we see many on defense that they are overpowered, which isn't the case. However, the reason they are overpowered is what is going to be addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3allz
Dont know what public servers youve been playing on, but i was refering to clan style ones where people can actually play and you cant just 'walk right in and stomp a teams defense'. Seriously, if you were playing against decent players, you wouldnt have said that.
Clan style servers are public. The only difference is the focus. I.E. caps.

Clan style servers/=/good players. It simply means changed focus.

Quote:
And yes a clan style public game does translate into league play completely, always has. Only difference is that in a proper leauge match, theres gonna be more team work and more coridination on offy and def. Everything else stays the same... sure on a public server the FL defender might be a medic normaly so getting past him would be easier than someone who actually does play soldier, but thats only 1/4 of the defence - chances are the others arnt so shit.
No. No no no no no. It does not. Gathers attempt to emulate league play to the best of their ability but do not entirely. Clan style never has and never will. Again, clan style servers only change the focus. The comparison of league play to clan style servers is sort of like comparing high school football to professional football. The focus is the same, but the game is not.

Even further, a changed focus does not mean, nor has it ever meant, that one side will dominate over the other. In fact, the only thing that clan style servers show are what side has the better players. So, yeah, in that respect, they emulate league play perfectly.

And I'll put it to you like this. In gathers with random people, where the focus is the same as clan style, I can pull the exact same stuff I can in the pubs on a consistent basis that I can inside the gather.

It's pretty consistent.
__________________________________________________ _________

Addressing general things.

In short, as it's been said many times in the past, the skill level of our offensive players in FF isn't as high as it was in TFC. A good offensive player would have done just as well in 1.11 as they will in 2.0. No changes were necessary, only tweaking.

As I stated somewhere in my posts, with the addition of the jump pad, any buff to the defense is now a buff to the offense. This makes the offense incredibly strong. In essence, it doubled the offenses strengths. Not so much in 5v5, but in 7v7 and 9v9. 4v4's? Forget about it. Two scouts building jump pads in critical spots can push a demoman or soldier past the first defender, or, get him the speed to take out that SG easily. Too easily.

As is stated on the map ff_cornfield, not everyone has a role. Currently, in league play, 3/9 classes (civilian is not included) do not have a role. We're left with 4 defensive and 2 offensive classes that are consistent on all levels of play.

I don't see snipers being used on anything besides Highlander. Spies might have a use once a round, but it's not a permanent role. Pyros are simply countered by the existence of one class that 99% of all defenses have. With the addition of the jump pad, swing engineers will be much more common, making pyros obsolete on defense.

The reason for this is that:

1. EMP's are perfect for destroying pipe traps.

2. EMP's are perfect for destroying SG's.

3. EMP's are perfect for taking out classes with large amounts of cells (engineers and pyros).

These are three things that almost all defenses have. Engineers will swing much more often than they did in 1.11 simply because of jump pads, again making other classes that may have filled the role (spies and pyros) obsolete.

I'm also concerned about the role of the spy. His specialty of taking out SG's with a sab will not happen in league play, or, if they do, it won't have as large of an effect as it does in pub play due to the nature of the game at a higher level... I.E. not everyone crowding in one room.

However, the general direction of things is very nice. I'd also like to make one major suggestion for every class as well as one for the jump pad.

Jump Pad: Make it destroyable. Not just by the owner, but by the enemy team or allies with friendly fire on.

Scout: None here besides bringing back caltrops =P.

Medic: Again none.

Pyro: Rework the flame system. Reliance on grenades makes him weak in a ton of areas. While he has a nice role in AVD, his DM abilities are severely hurt by the reliance on grenades.

Heavy: Slight adjustment to the cone of fire as well as what was being looked at for 2.1. Not major, but just significant enough to make him just as appealing as he was before.

Soldier: None.

Demo: None. You've got it covered.

Sniper: Complete reworking needed. Just don't see him being useful in anything but 9v9 highlander... and even then...

Spy: Role is compromised due to the increased pace of the game. Having a spy, again because of the increased pace, is a liability. He can't use the jump pad without compromising his stealth. He's inferior to taking out SG's compared to engineers, soldiers, and demomen. Top level players have already gotten used to hitting and holding talk when entering a room and shooting those who do not have talk on as an improved form of spy checking. No suggestion here as I don't know what would help him.

Engineer: EMP revamp or adjustment of the damage done to all types of ammo. Mainly more damage to all forms except cells and less to cells.


Edit: Bolded certain things to make it easier to read.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:23 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Sniper: Complete reworking needed. Just don't see him being useful in anything but 9v9 highlander...and even then...
People who complain about sniping don't know shit about sniping. But maybe you do and I don't know shit about what I'm talking about.

However, clan people have always claimed the sniper is worthless in clan play, yet good snipers can completely dominate any map. But sure, they aren't useful at all and need to be completely reworked...cause they're just too awesome that they suck? Wait, what? Exactly.

I've never understood the sniper hatred...ever...not even since dumb TFC clan days.

I always liked constantly sniping in TFC, killing just about everyone. And I still like it in FF. Not sure where the complaints come from. Maybe I just don't understand what's always made sniper so bad even though the sniper's always been so damn good. The contradictions when it comes to sniper complaints are the most insane things I've ever read about both FF and TFC.

It's the only class capable of one-shot-one-kill, and now FF even has tagging for more team benefits (which goes back to another thing I hate about a lot of clan complaints, how apparently killing shitloads of enemies usually doesn't help the team). Oh no, it's such a horrible, worthless class.

Sorry if you didn't really mean that, Credge...but you just reminded me of something I hate when people complain about snipers being worthless.

(used to play nothing but sniper and soldier)
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:38 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge

Bad:

BHop speed increase is not noticable.

Good things:


Demo blue pipe time is win.
Well see you have to be able to bhop first to notice it and yes it is very noticeable


And no the blue pipe timing is still to short needs to be upped to like 1.7 ish
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:41 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trepid_jon
People who complain about sniping don't know shit about sniping. But maybe you do and I don't know shit about what I'm talking about.

However, clan people have always claimed the sniper is worthless in clan play, yet good snipers can completely dominate any map. But sure, they aren't useful at all and need to be completely reworked...cause they're just too awesome that they suck? Wait, what? Exactly.

I've never understood the sniper hatred...ever...not even since dumb TFC clan days.

I always liked constantly sniping in TFC, killing just about everyone. And I still like it in FF. Not sure where the complaints come from. Maybe I just don't understand what's always made sniper so bad even though the sniper's always been so damn good. The contradictions when it comes to sniper complaints are the most insane things I've ever read about both FF and TFC.

It's the only class capable of one-shot-one-kill, and now FF even has tagging for more team benefits (which goes back to another thing I hate about a lot of clan complaints, how apparently killing shitloads of enemies usually doesn't help the team). Oh no, it's such a horrible, worthless class.

Sorry if you didn't really mean that, Credge...but you just reminded me of something I hate when people complain about snipers being worthless.

(used to play nothing but sniper and soldier)
Well, they're just not efficient or usable in clan play. Paul Bunyan, one of the best snipers in TFC, didn't play sniper in league matches. The only time they were used in TFC was for 9v9 highlander, and even then... not really.

In a pub environment a sniper will do great. But will he get anything done? No, not really.

Anyone who makes the argument that the sniper is useful has only used on in a pub environment. In a league environment, there are several problems with him.

1. He has to prepare his shots, slowing him down as well as the general pace of the game if he plays on offense.

2. If he misses, he most prepare another shot. If he plays on defense it's a wasted line of defense.

3. He offers no map control on D and offers no speed with O. His effectiveness is severely dampened due to the fact that he has to stop and slow down in order to shoot.

4. If he's in the air, his shot fails, wasting his shot.

All of these mean that he has to be well aware and prepared for the shot... this is something that doesn't jive in league play and it's why snipers were not used in TFC for anything besides 9v9 highlander.

Now, if you want classes that are fun for pubs, then the sniper and spy are your man. However, because the sniper (and spy!) have to slow down to perform at the best they can, they are not optimal for league play. And this is why they will not be chosen in a league atmosphere by any team that is competent.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:44 AM   #139
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Sniper ruins the fun for offense. That's my problem with a sniper in clanplay. A good sniper is even worse; there's nothing you can do to make him miss, you just have to hope on any given run.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:48 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
A pyro can decimate a T-soldier on monkey now. He also owns demomen and HWs pretty fast. If you think he's useless on defense you haven't seen a good def pyro. Playing against Sidd42 as pyro sd2 ramp was insane. Was like playing against a soldier who never ran out of rockets. Very good defensive option in that position.
You, very simply, lack skill. Not a personal attack, no offense intended. Pyros are terrible, they are just fatally flawed. Any "good" pyro is infinitely better as a soldier because any rocket he hit you with as a pyro could have been a much more devastating RPG rocket. Also, a 'skilled' or 'good' offense player moves so fast that he is only in the D Ramp player's sight long enough for like 3 rockets so the fact that he has more rockets than the soldier is pretty irrelevant. Add to the fact the soldier has a shotgun (instant hitscan weapon) to clean up the work he's done with splash rockets, and I don't even know where you are coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
Would you use more than 1, though? If we aren't seeing 2-3 demomen defenses as standard then he probably isn't overpowered. That said, I'm gonna look into adding extra damage for direct blue hits and reducing the radius slightly for 2.1 (to encourage accuracy)
i don't know. there's only one flag in a map, so there needs to also be long halls or junctions (like a Y). i probably would use 3 on torch2, 2 or 3 on redgiant, 2 on dropdown, 2 on ofire, still just one on crossover or pitfall or shutdown (if any) or aardvark or any other wide open map though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
I'll use the same argument you made for demomen below, but reverse.

I wouldn't use a single one on defense. Until I would, then he's underpowered for the role.
Why wouldn't you? If you don't have one, a scout is going to fly in and ninja your flag. It might even be a sneaky sneaksmanship medic, or just a normal medic on a well-executed or a lucky run. Something has to stop them, nothing like a pipetrap...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trepid_john
I've never understood the sniper hatred...ever...not even since dumb TFC clan days.

I always liked constantly sniping in TFC, killing just about everyone. And I still like it in FF. Not sure where the complaints come from. Maybe I just don't understand what's always made sniper so bad even though the sniper's always been so damn good. The contradictions when it comes to sniper complaints are the most insane things I've ever read about both FF and TFC.
Snipers in a clangame, pickup, or league situation effectively make it 4 O vs 3 (or 4) D...

The sniper does not block any choke points, cannot offer very decent incomings (although now he has the tag ability), has a humongous cooldown on his kills, is very weak, and requires a great deal of aim and timing, which can also be foiled by air control or some weird ducking. It is basically a waste of a player slot. He is almost completely not team-oriented, very out of place in the team fortress game.

Last edited by ViLE; 02-18-2008 at 01:09 AM.
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