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Old 02-16-2008, 11:19 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer
and it still is ... Demo is relaodding and reloading and reloading all the time, and the pipedelay that affects _all_ pipes instead of only the one just fired makes im weak in what he is supposed to do ...

and the concer too fast ... the average player may have 60ms ping ... how the heck is he supposed to maintain a pipetrap? the lightspeed-concers combined with that annoying delay make it impossible.

lets wait for a few clan-matches ... i bet at least 2 or 3 solies will be standard in every def-setup. And then they will be used in off as well ...
He was already the integral part of a def-setup in 1.11, which shows he was already powerfull enuff, yet he got enhanced so much .... no logic.
Um... You really need to see a competent demo in action. If you want to see some clan matches, come to #ff.pickup and spec some. Make sure to watch ViLE play demoman.
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Last edited by squeek.; 02-16-2008 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:39 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
Having the soldier as a solid defensive class is the backbone of a balanced game. In 1.11 I could do a mediocre conc and get past even the best soldier. Playing defense in 1.11 was pretty frustrating.
The game was fine from a league perspective. Very balanced. Whether the game was D or O friendly was dependent on the map and not the flow of the game. That's balance. Now, I'm not sure. I'll be checking tonight at my clans practice.

The biggest issue with the soldier was the explosion radius. Besides that, very few people got past me as the soldier, and if they did, they wouldn't last long.

The jump pad changes a lot of how the game will play, both in pubs and in leagues. Leagues will see definite class restrictions for both O and D now that heavies on offense are a good possibility. Forget about pubs, the spammyness of them has been complimented by extreme HW love both directly and indirectly.

Even further, all of the buffs you gave defensive classes are canceled due to them also now being offensive buffs. In essence, you've made the game super offensive friendly. Which is fine for pubs (except AVD).

The biggest issue is with the jump pad itself. Instead of basing how fast you travel on it by your base speed, it simply flings you at the same speed regardless of the class you chose.

Scouts should benefit the most from them and heavies should benefit the least. I further don't understand why the heavy is even effected by the jump pad. He isn't pushed by explosives and isn't as pushable by concs compared to other classes. Why does he travel like he does? It's very inconsistent.

Also, the HW can easily hit people when using the jump pad with the new AC mechanic. Simply start firing before you hit the pad, hold right click at your desired ROF and then hit the pad. Simply aiming in the direction the enemy is in will net you many hits. Alternatively, because of how the HW is treated on the jump pad, you can simply just hold fire down and by the time you land you'll be firing full blast, generally right next to people you want to kill.

Biggest issue with 2.0: The jump pad. Just needs to be tweaked.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:48 PM   #83
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Quote:
RE: AvD, yeah i know things are unbalanced in the offense's favour right now. This is mainly because the maps are designed to let 1 lucky offy run finish the map, rather than having the whole team push forward. We're working on a new gamemode type to fix this problem, but no promises as to when it'll surface
Awesome, this is exactly what will keep me playing FF.

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and they still do
Actually I play engi frequently and I think SG's are pretty mean towards ground units now, air units can fly through though.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:54 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathook
So I'm going back to TF2. This game seems really not fun anymore. Good luck with your mod.
Meathook, don't be too hasty!! It is a x.0 version- and even so it fixes many technical problems and improves graphics. What you're saying about it being offense unbalanced is recognized and mentioned by many in this thread, AfterShock even acknowledges it himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
yeah i know things are unbalanced in the offense's favour right now.
So wait till they get more feedback from the pub'bers and general community and a 2.1 comes out. Just like the 1.0 hwguy made it past playtesting and into the release, these things happen and will get sorted out.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:03 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a082
ps: team color for demoman's pipe?
no god damnit
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
Um... You really need to see a competent demo in action. If you want to see some clan matches, come to #ff.pickup and spec some. Make sure to watch ViLE play demoman.

<3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
Thats why they were removed or disabled. As they were useless in the current state.
they weren't useless in the least though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer
i feard that as well, that the beta-players let their personal preferences sneak into the class-balance ... mabe even unconsciously, i think its inevitable somehow. It was the reason that the soldier was the holy-cow in older tf-versions, and it now seems to be here as well, too bad .... About the sniper-whining: anyone remember qwtf? a medicore sniper got 80-100 kills in 30mins, and a really skilled one on a good day did 180. The 1.11-sniper was lightyears away from that, and still he got nerved....

the reason the soldier was the holy-cow is the nature of his weapons, and the nature of the game

When you got kids flying past you at 500 miles an hour a weapon that stops them, is easy to use (shoot teh floor!!!) and is very powerful (2 rockets bye bye scout, 3 rockets see ya medi), is of COURSE going to be perceived as the 'holy-cow'.

The nature of the game is speed and fast-paced decisions, not tracing a dot across the yard at another player.

Just because you, personally, feel sniper is fun, awesome, righteous, amazing, should be the main class, doesn't mean that it should.

As a sniper, you are playing the wrong game bro. It's capture the flag not battlefield chaos (unless you're in a pug, in which case you could very easily get teh wrong idea, and I have a sneaking suspicion your frame of reference is as such).

note: next time I'll just delete the 3 longest posts - 4est

Last edited by 4est; 02-17-2008 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:25 AM   #86
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:30 AM   #87
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:39 AM   #88
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quad-post thoughts summary:

Jump pad needs to be destroyable; you can build it in their base and just run a train. I.E. jump pad at bottom ramp, on top of flag, and at their front door. GG

Demoman needs to be looked at again(By someone who can actually play the fucking thing plz). Blue pipes are too dominant; there is no reason to try to hit incoming O with body shots. Simply just spam the doorway and wah-lah! I do believe the fix was to reduce spam, but instead, it seems to encourage it. Also, I remember reading that the bug where the blue pipe hits their body and falls to the ground would be reduced to 'statistically insignificant.' The game has been out under 24 hours and I have already experienced this 50+ times.
(i am referring to 2.0 coming out when i say the game)

Whatever the hell you did to concs or movement, that is a step in the right direction. They seem to be more potent now

Motion blur removal is =[
I wish you would make an option to make it fov change or motion blur cuz motion blur gave me an erection.

SGs are still quite hard to kill. Clang Clang still wins the internet piece prize. I have to say the push fix is hot sex, though.

melee damage upgrade I haven't noticed in the least. It seems as spy you either kill the guy or he notices you and you don't kill the guy, though I'm sure it is nice for those times when you start killing a guy, he struggles at low life, and ends up teh victor.

Everyone says shotgun dmg is low; I think its just the bullet spread is too wide at longer distances(yes I do realize its a shotgun, but you got to realize this is fortress gaming). You can wtfpwn someone by shooting them up in their grill but a fleeing felon only gets grazed on the ass.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:41 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViLE
This proves evrything i've been saying about the beta-testers style of game they've been playing
Yeah man why don't they think of the CLANSSSS??

I hope you realize that quite a few testers are clanners themselves.

Quote:
Demo blue pipes are a little too overpowered. Example (clanstyle type of game): In monkey, if i'm demoing, nobody is getting in the bottom. At all. We might as well have 3 d and 1 o in our 4v4 OvD, because the blue pipes really are too good.
You're only using a clan-style match as an example. Think about pubs and other types of play.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:47 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirohito
You're only using a clan-style match as an example. Think about pubs and other types of play.
They'll be even more dominant there, though. The spammyness of FF pubs, while fun, is just that. Spammy. 1.1 second blue pipes makes the demoman king of CQ, something the pyro or spy should be king of.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:53 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirohito
You're only using a clan-style match as an example. Think about pubs and other types of play.
If you balance it at the highest level possible, the pubs will balance themselves. See: DotA, Starcraft, any balanced game.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:01 AM   #92
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If you balance it at the highest level possible, the pubs will balance themselves. See: DotA, Starcraft, any balanced game.
Ah, that makes sense. Never though of it like that.

Last edited by Dr.Satan; 02-17-2008 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:37 AM   #93
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Flaming stops now or I start passing out vacations...

A discussion about clans v pubs is fine, but keep it a civil discussion.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:44 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TongueNGroove
The sound effect for the HW's gun is wierd and not gun like at all.
que? its mostly the same sound, i just swapped it for a tighter sample at the low end so it had more punch. i was actually trying to make it sound more "gun like" as you put it
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:51 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Satan
Flaming stops now or I start passing out vacations...

A discussion about clans v pubs is fine, but keep it a civil discussion.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:03 AM   #96
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I'm very happy with this patch. I'm glad that someone was able to find to a way to make the game fun again

I don't think you'll bring noobs into the game with this patch but you might have just found the right formula to bring back the old pros

thanks for the hard work and sticking with it...
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:18 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer
i dont buy that, sorry ... too easy? imho the aiming is very unpredictable, and much more inconsistant than it was in other tf-incarnations i played ... but maybe you one of those sub-30 lpb's that may explain your view.
I don't understand what you're trying to say.

...but what I'm trying to say is that other snipers were the closest thing I had to a problem, even at close range since it was so easy to mow down the opposition with the AR. Once 2.0 hit I found that playing as a sniper was more challenging and playing against snipers was easier when close up. They can still easily blast you in two shots if they know what they're doing. you aim for the leg, one shot, half charged carries some serious knock down power, then pop in the head and finish them off.

But up close they weren't the annoyance they were. They fall or retreat easily and allow you entrence to an enemy base instead of those frustrating sniper v you(non sniper) wars since you're always coming out at the same time.
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:01 AM   #98
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If you balance it at the highest level possible, the pubs will balance
I think that's a limited argument since the gameplay on FF varies quite a bit. Public ff_dustbowl is a totally different animal from clan-style ff_crossover. Are there even any AvD-only clans out there for FF?
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:09 AM   #99
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Ok, then.

Balance the game at the highest levels possible, the pubs will balance themselves.

Meaning, the highest levels of all gametypes.
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:14 AM   #100
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More info on my opinions on 2.0:

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM A LEAGUE PERSPECTIVE

The heavy is still only good at extreme CQ. His ROF compared to the spread at the lowest possible clip is not high enough to be of any use at, including medium and long ranges. At about 50% heat, the ROF is just right, however, the spread is too large to hit anything remotely close. At 100%, the ROF is too high and the spread is too large to be of use at all, including CQ.

A reduction of the spread at 50% heat would be great. Also, a reduction of the ROF at 100% is needed, but just slightly.

Unless a heavy is around a bag that has tons of ammo or near a spawn, he's pretty much a waste. This isn't due to anything besides the new heating mechanic. It's a great idea, but it wasn't executed very well.

Also, an HW who is firing as he hits the jump pad is extremely deadly on certain maps. Specifically maps that have hallways that are cramped.

Pyro is still nothing but an annoyance for experienced defenders and is useless on defense due to the time it takes him to kill players. If he is meant to be used as a class that moves then he needs to have a base increase in speed. If he's supposed to be meant to stop players, then he needs an increase in damage.

The jump pad needs to be destroyable by anyone (ff permitting) Pretty plain and simple.

Demoman is too much now. Monkey is an example of a map where he simply owns it. Not in the pwn sense, but the "I bought this and this is mine" sense.

EMP's need to be reworked from the ground up. They still don't add damage when bags are around them and the jump pads make the EMP insanely strong (fast class+damage through walls) for taking out SG's. EMP's need to do more damage against rockets and shells and less to cells. Currently they don't do much to people without cells, which is a shame.

Dispensers need faster tick rates.

Besides that, most everything is done pretty well.
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