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Old 05-19-2008, 09:37 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Squeek: What's the reasoning for lowering the health? It seems like it's pretty easy to take them out as it is. Also I doubt the current build time is a concern for most engineers. I spend more time running around finding enough metal to build one in the first place (since the amount of cells for engi's on spawn has been lowered for 2.0) than I do building it. I think ground push is probably a little high, but air push feels kind of weak.
There are a lot of reasons for a lot of different angles to take when balancing the SG. Right now, nothing is set in stone and nothing has even been properly tested with the SG yet.

Basically, the reason for lowering SG health is that, as of right now, a medic can not consistently take down an unguarded sentry gun. If the engi is out of position/dead, a medic has to really struggle to get the SG down. This is a major problem, and it's a major reason as to why demomen are used as SG killers instead. Build time is being looked at as a compromise to reducing SG health/push. And, air AND ground push are absolutely out of control currently. See startec or 2mesa3 for proof.

EDIT: By the way, SG is not the only thing that is changing. Everything will be tested, and it will be tested well.
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Last edited by squeek.; 05-19-2008 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:01 PM   #262
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Like the hard cap? :/
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:11 PM   #263
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Squeek: Those sound like awfully offense-oriented changes. I'm amazed people are having trouble taking out an unguarded SG as a medic, the supernailgun is evil against those. Not to mention they can conc-jump past them, which is my reasoning against wanting more air push. Air push prior to 2.0 was pretty strong, now I see scout just fly past SG's coming straight at them, with the air push barely even noticeable. Maybe it's dependent more on the angle.

As for build time being a compromise, please don't look at it that way, build time is inconsequential to the changes you're talking about, it constitutes only a fraction of the time involved. That's like justifying a weaker Sg based on wrench damage or engineer health, it's really secondary.

And as for throughly testing the changes, forgive me if I'm skeptical seeing as how hard 2.0 messed up defense for AvD maps.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:15 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Squeek: Those sound like awfully offense-oriented changes. I'm amazed people are having trouble taking out an unguarded SG as a medic, the supernailgun is evil against those. Not to mention they can conc-jump past them, which is my reasoning against wanting more air push. Air push prior to 2.0 was pretty strong, now I see scout just fly past SG's coming straight at them, with the air push barely even noticeable.

And as for throughly testing the changes, forgive me if I'm skeptical seeing as how hard 2.0 messed up defense for AvD maps.
If the SG becomes useless, we will undo the nerfs. Just calm down! Nothing has changed for certain yet. Nothing. I guess I see why the devs never wanted to post WIP changes on the general forums. Please just let it go now, though...
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:57 AM   #265
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Alright I'll drop the sg thing. I probably wouldn't show so much interest in it if it didn't feel like AvD was getting neglected these days.
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:29 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Alright I'll drop the sg thing. I probably wouldn't show so much interest in it if it didn't feel like AvD was getting neglected these days.
Hmmm...? How do you figure? We will be testing AvD extensively also.
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:56 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
Hmmm...? How do you figure? We will be testing AvD extensively also.
That's good to hear...I love AvD...I've just noticed that it's kinda difficult to design a really solid AvD map on the source engine...even remade maps like dustbowl and palermo are awkward on it...hope you guys figure something out!
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:46 AM   #268
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Like lowering the CP Area height to make CP piping viable...

*gets shot for mentioning this for the 347th time*
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #269
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Quote:
Hmmm...? How do you figure? We will be testing AvD extensively also.
Well, I was given the same line for 2.0 and here's what happened:

Dustbowl:
-Multiple areas where sg's are bugged, something that's been present ever since 1.0. If AvD was being tested extensively, this shouldn't have happened. I recall noticing it my first or second game of FF on dustbowl and it's been ignored for a long time. (I have been told this is now fixed however)
-Engineers now start off with 50 metal instead of enough to build an sg, making for even more of a pack scramble
-1.1s timers make life harder for demomen at the gates and in longer stretches
-Since the game is over when O caps, if the map is balanced, O should only cap all 3 points about 50% the time. Right now I think it's more like 90%.

Cornfield:
-Jump pads, new speeds, and pyro hovering make this a JOKE for defense now. If you disagree, by all means let me demonstrate on a server somewhere.

Palermo:
-A very confusing map for someone not familiar with it


Finally, there's the sheer number of AvD maps v. CTF. There were 2 AvD maps at launch and one has been added since then. There were 6 CTF maps at launch and god knows how many now. I realize these are harder to make, but for someone who doesn't play for CTF, that doesn't leave a lot of options.
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:40 PM   #270
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Most of the AvD fixes, especially for cornfield and palermo, are gonna require a mapper.

GingerLord already fixed Dustbowl, but that was a pretty simple change... fixing cornfield and palermo is gonna require some work, and cornfield will probably need a total redesign. It was never particularly d-friendly, and it's even less so now.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:24 PM   #271
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I always thought Palermo should never have been included, the lighting is a joke for starters before you even get around to the fact its unfinished.

Horrible map.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:41 PM   #272
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Cornfield isn't so bad if you have a team that knows where and how to play...that being said it doesn't bode well for pubs...

Palermo feels so awkward...I dunno what it is...

I'm glad to hear Dustbowl was fixed...It just steals all my resources when jumping into CP2 pit with all the nades and pipes going off...maybe that's why TF2 didn't include nades...it just eats resources in those kind of spammy situations...

I'd like to see someone remake Avanti or Warpath...Avanti seems like it would port perfectly over to the source engine.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:06 PM   #273
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palermo is my most favorite map of all time, the only problem with lighting is the lgihting in the room above the door. toooooooo dark.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:08 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuitous
Hitscan wasn't changed in 2.0...
Sure it was, or it was adjusted in a Source patch. Plenty of people noticed a difference in hitscan weapons with 2.0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss
nothing changed with the hitscan detection stuff. credge is just paranoid.
I don't understand the paranoid bit.

par·a·noid (pr-noid)
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1. Relating to, characteristic of, or affected with paranoia.
2. Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others: a paranoid suspicion that the phone might be bugged.


There's no distrust or irrational fear. I'm expressing what was, I thought, established fact with the 2.0 patch since everyone I've ever talked to about it experienced the same thing from 1.11 to 2.0.

It's much like the engineer buff in 2.0.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
When the game is balanced so that it is no longer this:
ETA?
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:08 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Finally, there's the sheer number of AvD maps v. CTF. There were 2 AvD maps at launch and one has been added since then. There were 6 CTF maps at launch and god knows how many now. I realize these are harder to make, but for someone who doesn't play for CTF, that doesn't leave a lot of options.
This is going to change. A lot. Don't expect many more official CTF maps (besides the ones currently in the works) in the future.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:09 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
It's much like the engineer buff in 2.0.
The engineer buff is real. The hitscan change is an irrational fear.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:11 PM   #277
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except the engineer was buffed... well at least the SG ground push was.

hitscan... didnt change.

unless valve did something with the Source engine that we dont know about.

squeek you quick little devil!
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:16 PM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
The engineer buff is real. The hitscan change is an irrational fear.
I don't see how that's irrational fear, what with being able to hit people consitantly with hitscan weaponry (blood, pain sound, etc) in 1.11 and then having it seem pretty random when 2.0 came out (there was an engine patch around the time 2.0 came out).

It's also been an issue in TF2 after the goldrush patch (same thing, engine patch was released around the time that patch came out). Hitscan weaponry has always been dodgy in HL2 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss
except the engineer was buffed... well at least the SG ground push was.

hitscan... didnt change.

unless valve did something with the Source engine that we dont know about.

squeek you quick little devil!
The buff I'm talking about was to how much damage he takes. In 1.11, he takes the same damage that a medium armor class takes from all weaponry. In 2.0 he takes some 25-35 less depending on the top damage done. I don't recall this being in the patch notes, but it's something I most certainly experienced while doing all the damage stuffs I did.

Speaking of, I should probably update that thread.

Edit: Let me explain the damage thing a little bit more.

A direct rocket does some 80-85 total damage (armor class doesn't matter, that 80-85 will be split between health and armor depending on armor class). The engineer not only has a unique armor class (addressed in the wiki), but takes less damage over all (some 25-35 damage) compared to all other classes.

Go check it out sometime. It'll blow your mind, man.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:58 PM   #279
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Quote:
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I always thought Palermo should never have been included, the lighting is a joke for starters before you even get around to the fact its unfinished.
Yeah I talk about this here. I'm not too fond of the map, but regardless it still needs some help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabeggar
It just steals all my resources when jumping into CP2 pit with all the nades and pipes going off
Aw, but it looks so friggin awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
This is going to change. A lot.
I hope so man. I can't wait for bigass AvD games with bots. I would love to see a 32 man game of dustbowl or warpath.
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