A review about overpowered Offense over Defense

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by immortal

ok, so about the spawnings, i must be the most unlucky player on the whole galaxy because i always spawn on the most far for D. Or maybe you are talking about past versions of FF where spawnings were random on those maps.

You're not unlucky. The spawns have been changed to not be random in recent patches. It was to add some consistency and make sure that the offense gets rewarded for killing a D player.

[Dr.Satan]

getting to page 2

[immortal]

Originally Posted by squeek.

You're not unlucky. The spawns have been changed to not be random in recent patches. It was to add some consistency and make sure that the offense gets rewarded for killing a D player.

yeah, i know. Moya doesn't.


but whatever, close this topic, discussing here never made any difference on ff releases and won't be different now..

[squeek.]

You're wrong about that. The balance of offense and defense is definitely something that deserves some attention.

[immortal]

Originally Posted by squeek.

You're wrong about that. The balance of offense and defense is definitely something that deserves some attention.

me loves you long time!

[eomoyaff]

You never mentioned when though. So technically I'm right still.

Also, I still spawn where I need to in any of those defensive positions. The spawn location doesn't change the fact that it makes it harder to defend. Every other bit of information that I posted above is accurate. And if you fail to get that, then you really aren't that good, and your tactics need work.

And stop calling my name out immortal.. You made this more about me then you did the thread just because I replied previously. A little selfish, dude..

Btw, your clan still isn't in the UGC roster. You left dp so you could lead talos into ugc. So where are you then?. Get on the ball man. I'm done with this thread. My opinion stands.

~adios*

[immortal]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

You never mentioned when though. So technically I'm right still.

Also, I still spawn where I need to in any of those defensive positions. The spawn location doesn't change the fact that it makes it harder to defend. Every other bit of information that I posted above is accurate. And if you fail to get that, then you really aren't that good, and your tactics need work.

And stop calling my name out immortal.. You made this more about me then you did the thread just because I replied previously. A little selfish, dude..

Btw, your clan still isn't in the UGC roster. You left dp so you could lead talos into ugc. So where are you then?. Get on the ball man. I'm done with this thread. My opinion stands.

~adios*

hahaha,

i think you are not used to league play.
those pro features for offense were added to please general public, newbies, not intended for real matches. That is my point. On real matches people play well enough to don't need those "rewards" for killing...

bye moya

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by emoyaff

The point is that this game isn't TFC. It's intentionally faster.

Very true. However faster speeds benefit offense much more than defense. You said it yourself, defense is usually spawned where it needs to be (minus the hikes in palermo). More speed means more O is in D's face sooner. This doesn't just mean the game is faster. This means D has more attackers to deal with than TFC, because they can come at them more frequently, thus making their job harder. Speed alone is an advantage FF O has over TFC O. Nothing has been given to D to compensate for this, thus FF D is harder.

Originally Posted by emoyaff

My vote would be the defense because objectively, all they have to do is kill.

I think you're not seeing all the angles. Say you have an 11 v 11 game. Defense has to maintain sentries, pipe the flag, watch all entry points, spy check, AND kill everyone coming through. Offense doesn't even HAVE to kill anyone. ALL they have to do is move the flag forward. I think defense has a bigger job than offense (except in the case of some more complex maneuvers). Defense needs to kill the entire time. Offense only needs to cap a point once.

Originally Posted by emoyaff

But I have seen nearly as many games held on Dustbowl as I've seen won by the offense. It just depends on who's playing on what side. I believe the balance of the game comes more with the skill of the players during that game. No one here can really say if it is or isn't balanced because there is no real way to prove that.

I have NOT for post-2.0 games. I have over 1100 games recorded on my machine, the majority of which are AvD. If you sample a couple hundred games and D loses in the vast majority of them or round times are substantially lower than 1.0, that's supporting evidence. You may not be able to prove it (hell, GRAVITY still hasn't been proven), but you can draw good conclusions from it.

Originally Posted by emoyaff

And again, we don't know how balanced the game is.

Yes and no. I don't really follow CTF much, so I can't comment on balance for that. For AvD, I have mountains of evidence suggesting it's unbalanced and D is weaker in FF now than any other Fortress game.

Originally Posted by emoyaff

It all depends on the players who are playing. Their skill will determine the direction of the game.

As for the skill, I agree, but I think things are getting tilted hard. If players or roughly equal skill play each other and D loses the majority of the time, that doesn't sound balanced. I'm sure I'm not the best player, but I've played Fortress games for about 11 years. Here's my AvD experience:

TFC:
O = challenging
D = challenging

FF 1.0:
O = challenging, but slighty easier
D = challenging, but somewhat harder

FF 2.0 and above:
O = WAY easier than anything I've experienced before
D = substantially harder, most "even" games feel like a foregone conclusion

So either I magically suck at D and have become godlike at O over the past year or so, or else there's been a big shift in balance. And if I do simply suck, skilled players please enlighten me: Since I could hold my own in FF 1.0, what great new features for defense am I failing to exploit in 2.0 and above (besides ng cell charging)? If you don't have an answer to that, that means the game is simply harder, period.

I feel like the skill difference for D between FF now v. 1.0 is a series of workaround tactics meant to compensate for D's growing shortcomings that simply aren't as effective as the old gameplay mechanics, no matter how good the player. Where's the skill if one side is made easier than ever and the other harder and harder?

Originally Posted by emoyaff

I'm done with this thread. My opinion stands.

Well I can understand not responding to what you see as personal attacks, but I'd appreciate an answer to my question about what I'm doing wrong for defense in 2.4 v. 1.0.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Very true. However faster speeds benefit offense much more than defense. You said it yourself, defense is usually spawned where it needs to be (minus the hikes in palermo). More speed means more O is in D's face sooner. This doesn't just mean the game is faster. This means D has more attackers to deal with than TFC, because they can come at them more frequently, thus making their job harder. Speed alone is an advantage FF O has over TFC O. Nothing has been given to D to compensate for this, thus FF D is harder.

I think you're not seeing all the angles. Say you have an 11 v 11 game. Defense has to maintain sentries, pipe the flag, watch all entry points, spy check, AND kill everyone coming through. Offense doesn't even HAVE to kill anyone. ALL they have to do is move the flag forward. I think defense has a bigger job than offense (except in the case of some more complex maneuvers). Defense needs to kill the entire time. Offense only needs to cap a point once.

I have NOT for post-2.0 games. I have over 1100 games recorded on my machine, the majority of which are AvD. If you sample a couple hundred games and D loses in the vast majority of them or round times are substantially lower than 1.0, that's supporting evidence. You may not be able to prove it (hell, GRAVITY still hasn't been proven), but you can draw good conclusions from it.


Yes and no. I don't really follow CTF much, so I can't comment on balance for that. For AvD, I have mountains of evidence suggesting it's unbalanced and D is weaker in FF now than any other Fortress game.



As for the skill, I agree, but I think things are getting tilted hard. If players or roughly equal skill play each other and D loses the majority of the time, that doesn't sound balanced. I'm sure I'm not the best player, but I've played Fortress games for about 11 years. Here's my AvD experience:

TFC:
O = challenging
D = challenging

FF 1.0:
O = challenging, but slighty easier
D = challenging, but somewhat harder

FF 2.0 and above:
O = WAY easier than anything I've experienced before
D = substantially harder, most "even" games feel like a foregone conclusion

So either I magically suck at D and have become godlike at O over the past year or so, or else there's been a big shift in balance. And if I do simply suck, skilled players please enlighten me: Since I could hold my own in FF 1.0, what great new features for defense am I failing to exploit in 2.0 and above (besides ng cell charging)? If you don't have an answer to that, that means the game is simply harder, period.

I feel like the skill difference for D between FF now v. 1.0 is a series of workaround tactics meant to compensate for D's growing shortcomings that simply aren't as effective as the old gameplay mechanics, no matter how good the player. Where's the skill if one side is made easier than ever and the other harder and harder?

Well I can understand not responding to what you see as personal attacks, but I'd appreciate an answer to my question about what I'm doing wrong for defense in 2.4 v. 1.0.

1) The game is faster for both sides, not just the offense. The whole game is faster. And the defense can be just as fast setting us as it takes the offense to get over to the defensive side. I see it ALL the time in competitive games. Even in pub games. As for "Nothing has been given to D to compensate for this, thus FF D is harder.," That's a tub of shit covered children my friend . In 2.4, if you're shot while bhopping or in mid air, you slow down to run speed. Defense has splash damage. if a rocket hits the ground beside/behind/in front of his opponent, he will slow down. That makes it much easier to kill the offensive opponent.

2) The Defense doesn't have a bigger job to do then the offense.. It's about equal actually. You claim that all the offense has to do is move the flag, but I garuntee that flag wont go anywhere far from any flag room if the offense doesn't kill anything. Both teams HAVE to kill one another to succeed in something. And if an offense marches into a base you have to take into consideration of the following:

A) Falling Damage upon getting to Defensive side.
-If you play any class and your in a rush to get to the base, you're going to take this kind of damage along the way in almost all maps.

B) Dealing with stronger weaponry then your own.
-AC cannons, Sentry Guns guarded by EMP's. Rockets, Pipes, mirv's, nail grenades, dispensers, detpacks, plus all the weapons the offense have to with them.

C) Entrance Spam
-A defense guarding their flag will toss grenades at the entrance to the base to slow the offense down. You'd mostly see this at the beginning of a match to allow more time for the defense to get set up. And trust me, this works out 100% of the time if the offense is rushing.

D) Choke Points
-Every map has them. Most of the time you'll find a soldier in it. This gives the heavy class a place that's easy to work with. There is a downfall to this though. The offense knows where the choke point is. And if he's smart, he'll prim a nade before reaching it. This will make it slightly easier for the offense. but if a choke point is big enough then the defense can avoid it.

E) Defensive Communication
-If the defense is communicating well, this will make the offense much harder to be apart of then what it once was. Because then everyone knows your position, and how close you are. They can predict ahead and make an easy kill.

Everything above adds up and makes offense generally harder to play. To travel across a map and expect A-E every time makes it challenging and gives balance to both sides.

3)You're general experience of 11 years in fortress gaming is impressive but doesn't mean anything if the game you play is constantly evolving into something else. There's been a lot of changes since the beginning.. I can say I'm very happy with 2.4.

4)If the offense didn't have the abilities they have now -- if they weren't slightly faster or better then the defense, how would you ever expect the offense to cap anything? The flag is meant to be captured. Thus, you need a better offense to do so. but again, I believe this all falls back on the skill of the players.

Where's the skill if one side is made easier than ever and the other harder and harder?

Skill is on both sides, and falls on the players of both teams and how well they can work together. That's what makes or breaks a game. That's what makes each side better then the other. The defense isn't getting harder and harder. The dev's pretty much gave them a solution to the speed problem. And I can tell you now, capping the flag to me is harder now then what it use to be due to the slow on shot process..

So there you have it.

~adios*

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by immortal

hahaha,

i think you are not used to league play.
those pro features for offense were added to please general public, newbies, not intended for real matches. That is my point. On real matches people play well enough to don't need those "rewards" for killing...

bye moya

This whole game was meant for the public lol.. And actually, I did league. If you can check the UGC champions, under the first season I believe you will find e0. I officered that clan. I'm pretty sure I know league gaming pretty damn well. But you didn't know that, so I'll give you a little bit of credit for your idiocy.

Also everything I stated above is accurate. Suck it lol

Bye Immortal ^_^

[immortal]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

This whole game was meant for the public lol.. And actually, I did league. If you can check the UGC champions, under the first season I believe you will find e0. I officered that clan. I'm pretty sure I know league gaming pretty damn well. But you didn't know that, so I'll give you a little bit of credit for your idiocy.

Also everything I stated above is accurate. Suck it lol

Bye Immortal ^_^

hahahaha, you are funny moya!!!!!!
i'm glad you still show up on this thread

[chilledsanity]

Emoya:

Responding to your points:

1) I did forget about the slowdown shots introduced in 2.4. That is basically the first thing D has been given in a long time. HOWEVER, the speeds overall were boosted in 2.0, so the "boost" is more the equivalent of a rollback. Offense has still been given about a dozen other perks (either new abilities or D nerfs)

2) I realize the many obstacles both sides face. That's why I was trying to make the point is that it's more complicated than "just kill" As for your sub-points however, A and B don't carry as much weight:

A) Pyros get a nice vertical boost with no damage consequence. Jump pads can ferry the whole team across a point. Scouts now have less fall damage.

B) The AC simply isn't as powerful as it was in 1.0 or TFC. Sg's have less push, do less damage, don't protect against splash, and are a mix as far as tracking. While the tracking problem isn't severe, the others are. While I'm not denying offense has shit to deal with, it's less than it used to be.

3) Well it's not just me is my point. AvD across the board seems to have been eroded heavily. This is why I was focusing on changes between 1.0 and 2.4. In 1.0 you frequently had great games down to the wire and gradual pushes. The only times I see a long hold from D on AvD nowadays is when O is completely incompetent. When both sides are competent, D tends to fall.

4) I think you're misunderstanding my question. Of course offense needs different abilities to capture the flag. The question is why does offense need so many MORE advantages than defense compared to TFC and FF 1.0?

Originally Posted by emoya

The dev's pretty much gave them a solution to the speed problem.

"Solution" is a pretty big claim, I'd call it a stopgap and that's just part of the problem. I think this makes more of an impact in CTF, where bunny hopping and air sailing is more crucial. This doesn't really do anything about weaker sentries taking longer to stop a ground flagrunner, AC not having as much stopping power, pyros circumventing vertical barriers with no consequences, only has a minor impact on jump pad ferrying.

Thanks for looking this over, if you reply to any of this, #4 I consider the most relevant question.

[eomoyaff]

Ahhh, look at you! You keep me coming back when I just want to leave it be! lol

Ok, so for number 4 Chille,

The defense has their own abilities as well to maneuver around the map to get where they need to go. While it is not as fast as the offensive concing, it evens out because the defense only has to maneuver within their base. While the offense needs all these abilities to consistently capture the flag, the defense can pull off a majority of these same abilities to keep up.

As far as comparing TFC or 1.0 to 2.4, you really can't in my opinion. 2.4 is suppose to be faster. To allow more caps in less time. To understand how this all works, I suggest you join a pickup match and watch the game through both rounds. It'll help you understand a little more I believe. As for the password, I'm not sure I can give it to you here so I'll PM it to you.

Thanks again for getting back to me though.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by immortal

hahahaha, you are funny moya!!!!!!
i'm glad you still show up on this thread

Awww, thank you Immortal <3 <3 <3. Happy Valentines day, I LOVE YOU! ^.^''!! Teeheehee

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

As far as comparing TFC or 1.0 to 2.4, you really can't in my opinion. 2.4 is suppose to be faster.

You obviously don't remember skimming. CTF had way more caps pre-2.1 I believe.

[chilledsanity]

Do pickups even play AvD? Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing CTF offense/defense. I've never cared for that too much and I'm not informed enough to make any judgment regarding balance for it. AvD and I/D is what I have much more of a stake in.

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

The defense has their own abilities as well to maneuver around the map to get where they need to go. While it is not as fast as the offensive concing, it evens out because the defense only has to maneuver within their base. While the offense needs all these abilities to consistently capture the flag, the defense can pull off a majority of these same abilities to keep up.

What are these newfangled abilites in FF 2.4 you mention?

[xks]

Speed and Grenades are two key factors in giving offensive players an edge over their defensive opponents.

Whoever has the grenades will win eventually.

Offensive players can currently attack, use their grenades, die and be back attacking again (with more grenades) faster than the average defensive player can go to the nearest restock location, pick up a new bag of grenades (if it's even there) and return to their post.

Defenders simply cannot hope to cope with several attacking players who can do that.

Lets also not forget that the grenades themselves naturally favour the aggressor in their usage anyway. It's far easier for an offensive Medic to have a grenade primed and thrown into a defenders face than it is for that defender to do the reverse. At best most defending players will 'exchange' grenades with the attacking player.

If you want offensive balance you need to look at CTF in Quake 3 (or QL).

Everyone runs at the same speed, everyone has access to the same weapons, armour and powerups. If you want to cap you need to outsmart and outperform a guy who will always have more health/armour than you and who can run and move just as fast as you can.

To turn Q3CTF into FF on gameplay would simply require each dying player to spawn with a full stock of equipment and defending players to move 25% slower.

Right now FF resembles Basketball more than it resembles Football (Soccer to some of you).

There is defending in basketball, but it's a game that's skewed towards attacking as the routinely high scores for each team show. Everyone knows they will score a hatful of points in basketball, it doesn't change the game if your opponents score.

In football it's very different, it's not easy to score and it often changes the game when you do. It's delicately poised and one mistake or exceptional piece of skill/teamwork can unravel the opponents defence and result in a goal.

One of these games is tense, exciting, challenging, strategical and intensive, the other is a load of relentless and routine points farming.

FF is like basketball, Q3CTF/QLCTF is like football.

When someone caps against you in Quake, or in old TFC it used to be a big thing, it simply isn't in FF, it's routine.

[immortal]

excellent post xks.

One thing that could make this offense vs. defense more balanced would be a faster reloading time, in let's say 10 to 15% to all weapons, so if the defensive player doesn't die he will be able to at least reload his weapons for the next rush to come. It's is not uncommon to hear front-line defenders whining about not being able to reload their weapons between offense incomes.

[eomoyaff]

That'd make it way to easy for the Defense, immo. I can reload just fine.

Solly's reloading is fine if you dont spam your shit.
Demo's dont need to play more then 3 pipes at a flag point. They will take damage before they get to the flag. 3 should do the job just fine. Even 2 in most cases.
Hw doesn't reload
Engi relies on his SG.

For everyone here that's played a pickup, can you really say that the offense overpowered the defense?.

I still think this all narrows down to the players skill. That determines the which side has more power.

And if you know there's a grenade coming towards you, set one up as well. Time how quick it takes a medic to get to your location, and sync that with the grenade time.

Also before 2.1, there was a lot more caps I agree. but I never stated before 2.1. I said 2.1 to 2.4.