THE SHOWDOWN: Does God exist?

[uBeR]

Originally Posted by allisvoid

i was trying to say religion is a belief which is an opinion therefore not fact or real. god is a real belief though so in a sense... he's real.

Obviously, one's belief in something is not the prerequisite for being fact or not. Similarly, just because someone's opinion is one thing, it doesn't mean that therefore that opinion cannot be a fact. I could have the opinion that it's raining in Kansas right now, and that could correlate to fact. Of course, it may not be raining in Kansas, so it wouldn't correlate to a fact. Ergo, we find whether someone holds an idea to be true or not does not determine whether it is true or not.

And on bit that atheists don't do things for themselves or aren't selfish, or whatever the message was, I think is a bit misleading. In fact, their ultimate motivation is themselves. I'm not one to believe that evolution is no longer applicable to humans. If you are one of those, I have a sad and bitter reality to show to you. But ultimately, I think too many people focus on too few outliers. We like to focus on the people who fly planes in the buildings, so we can say their religion is that of violence. We like to focus on the people who evangelize, so we can say their religion is that fanatics. The reality is though is that the man of religion is the guy next door. He is the person selling coffee. They are your aunts and uncles. They're overwhelming just normal people, but we tend to like to focus on those outliers who are disproportionately paid attention to. It's unfortunate, for all people.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Are you saying higher IQs can feel the holy spirit better then others?

A non believer asked me once why the bible lists people living for hundreds of years when we live for such a short period yet have such incredible medicine. My response was that sin has been poisoning the human genome for millenia, that much exposure to evil takes it's toll. I wonder if people "felt" the holy spirit differently then they do today, as described in the bible.... it's an interesting though Innoc.

I probably should expand a little more... No, what I am saying is that many believe in God or a higher power but they tend to disdain the pomp, circumstance and ritual of organized religion. When you get further into the discussions you find many of the same elements that drive faith within the high IQ community as the average person. That ties in some to what I mentioned earlier ITT about that issue of hemispherical dominance and how that might relate to being able to sense that presence....perhaps that needs to be fleshed out more as well...

Being lazy...brevity...who knows...

[Nezumi]

I think all people, EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this planet, makes decisions solely for their own benifit. And I don't think this is cynical. In fact I think it's beautiful how people will by their very nature want to help others.

Someone may do something charitable because their religion told them it was the right thing to do. The fact remains that that person would have a desire to follow that religion, and would feel badly if they didn't.

People's sense of morality comes from social constructs. Peopel aren't born knowing right from wrong. Religion, apart from belief in the supernatural, is a construct devised* to show people right from wrong. A religious person will follow the rules of their society because their society has taught them what is right and what is wrong. But an athiest is no different. An athiest is brouhgt up in a society of rules just as a religious person is. The specifics of the rules may be a little different, but they are both followed, mostly without consideration from individuals, none the less.

And saying that an athiest only does things out of their own consideration, saying that an athiest won't rape, murder, etc. only because of fear of getting caught is ignorant and insulting.

*by man or god.

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Are you saying higher IQs can feel the holy spirit better then others?

A non believer asked me once why the bible lists people living for hundreds of years when we live for such a short period yet have such incredible medicine. My response was that sin has been poisoning the human genome for millenia, that much exposure to evil takes it's toll. I wonder if people "felt" the holy spirit differently then they do today, as described in the bible.... it's an interesting though Innoc.

I'm sorry, but that's, in my opinion, the funniest post in this thread.

[accrede]

I'm not one to believe that evolution is no longer applicable to humans. If you are one of those, I have a sad and bitter reality to show to you.

Human society has been becoming fairer and more rational for the last 500 years, at least in the west. Its true that we are still evolving but survival of the fittest does NOT equate to survial of the strongest or the biggest bully. That idea is a narrow simplistic view of evolution.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

I think all people, EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this planet, makes decisions solely for their own benifit. And I don't think this is cynical. In fact I think it's beautiful how people will by their very nature want to help others.

Someone may do something charitable because their religion told them it was the right thing to do. The fact remains that that person would have a desire to follow that religion, and would feel badly if they didn't.

People's sense of morality comes from social constructs. Peopel aren't born knowing right from wrong. Religion, apart from belief in the supernatural, is a construct devised* to show people right from wrong. A religious person will follow the rules of their society because their society has taught them what is right and what is wrong. But an athiest is no different. An athiest is brouhgt up in a society of rules just as a religious person is. The specifics of the rules may be a little different, but they are both followed, mostly without consideration from individuals, none the less.

And saying that an athiest only does things out of their own consideration, saying that an athiest won't rape, murder, etc. only because of fear of getting caught is ignorant and insulting.

*by man or god.

An atheist is more likely to look at his/her motivations because they are "free"(ish) to do so too (no blind faith or at least less, in most cases).

In answer to scuzzy's point, yes I think hitler et al. were normal human beings and that there is no supernatural force of good or evil. I think that people always do things to benefit themselves internally or externally and I think this applies to deists, atheists, theists, polytheists and agnostics (all humans).

[Suite307]

Religion isn't a good thing when it starts affecting the way you think and act.
God wouldn't want to be praised or wouldn't want to be honored. If someone as good as him created us, the only thing he should require is us being thankful for being here.

These days religion(s) have been deformed in a way to control people. The bible has been modified countless times, these scandals including members of the church still go up and up.

Anyways i could go on and on but no matter what people say people will always try to force you into believing their theories or beliefs.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Suite307

Religion isn't a good thing when it starts affecting the way you think and act.

Can you name an activity that has no impact on how you think or act?

[uBeR]

Pooping.

[YomMamasHouse]

Are you saying higher IQs can feel the holy spirit better then others?

The two trends that go with Iq and religion are basically that there is a smaller percentage of people who have a type of faith or religion and the ones who do have a firm belief in God are what you would call Deists as opposed to being truly religious.

Instead of the ritualistic and dogmatic types of religions and faiths we think of Deism is one that takes a more general stance on God, God is a neutral being(in some cases Good, depending) that created the universe and let it run like clockwork. Instead of intervening directly God sits back and watches in this system of beliefs. An example would be evolution, a deist wouldn't think of God just going "poof" and humans appear, they would think of a universe which had god had programmed to facilitate evolution on it's own.

[Innoc]

Actually YMH, the ratios of Theists to Athiests within Mensa, at least, is similar to that of the general population.

edit: American Mensa that is

[Suite307]

Being yourself is a sin.

[uBeR]

Eh, lets not get into religiosity and intelligence again.

[allisvoid]

yes scuzzy i would agree...

kid icarus i thought i was the only one who believed in the spaghetti monster...

i've lost all interest in this topic... you guys have fun.

[allisvoid]

Originally Posted by Suite307

Being yourself is a sin.

very interesting... apparently it is...

[Circuitous]

This thread is complete and utter garbage except for Bubbles.

ATTN: The Religious:
The non-believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: The Non Religious:
The believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: Everyone:
Go play some fucking video games.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

This thread is complete and utter garbage except for Bubbles.

ATTN: The Religious:
The non-believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: The Non Religious:
The believers don't actually care what you think.

ATTN: Everyone:
Go play some fucking video games.

Billionth time, there are people having a real conversation, so it would seem some do care to have this conversation. I understand you don't want to be a part of it, but this really isn't constructive and serves no purpose. Please take the melodrama elsewhere. You don't have to like that we're having the conversation, you don't have to be upset that others are actually enjoying it, you can, and this is a simple suggestion, just not read the thread.

Scuzzy

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Billionth time, there are people having a real conversation, so it would seem some do care to have this conversation. I understand you don't want to be a part of it, but this really isn't constructive and serves no purpose. Please take the melodrama elsewhere. You don't have to like that we're having the conversation, you don't have to be upset that others are actually enjoying it, you can, and this is a simple suggestion, just not read the thread.

Scuzzy

Oh man, I saw this exact post coming, with almost exactly this wording.

I like that the only things that really get you and Innoc off your asses anymore is a good old-fashioned religious debate.

Guitar solo!

Also, morality needn't be defined by a higher power. Evil is evil, good is good, and everyone's concept thereof varies necessarily. Hitler remains pretty evil, even though I don't have a Hell to send him to.

Of course, I doubt you can wrap your head around my beliefs any more than I can fathom an all-encompassing belief in a One True God that Created this World by His Own Whim, and Whose Presence Justifies my Existence and Defines all that is Universally Good and Evil, and so I shan't bother any further.

Guitar solo!

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Oh man, I saw this exact post coming, with almost exactly this wording.

I like that the only things that really get you and Innoc off your asses anymore is a good old-fashioned religious debate.

You are obviously not paying any attention or comprehending the messages that we're writing. We're aren't having a religious debate, we're discussing the definition of atheism.

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Also, morality needn't be defined by a higher power. Evil is evil, good is good, and everyone's concept thereof varies necessarily. Hitler remains pretty evil, even though I don't have a Hell to send him to.

In Atheism the everyday meaning of "evil" and "good" can not exist (good forces and evil forces), in Atheism nature is the only force in the universe and that in itself is neither good nor evil, it "just is". As I have said, and you haven't read, "good" in athesim is only defined by someone's opinion of "I like that" and evil is "I don't like that", but there is nothing more to it.

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Of course, I doubt you can wrap your head around my beliefs any more than I can fathom an all-encompassing belief in a One True God that Created this World by His Own Whim, and Whose Presence Justifies my Existence and Defines all that is Universally Good and Evil, and so I shan't bother any further.

Not bad, you've been able to attack me, what you believe to be my beliefs, and my intelligence all in one very long run-on sentance. Notice that I haven't insulted you, attacked you, or berated you. My points have obviously hit a nerve with you, but you haven't given any facts to dispute my conclusions. Take some time, think about the real reasons why you're upset, and then reply.

Thanks,
Scuzzy


Guitar solo![/QUOTE]

[Circuitous]

Guitar solo!

Why, uh... why can't good and evil exist without God? That's stupid.

That's really, bountifully stupid.

[Fail]

No matter how you look at, man created God.