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Old 01-18-2008, 03:01 PM   #1
Hammock
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ff_congestus tweaks

Okay I loved congestus in tfc, and I love congestus in FF, but after many rounds of congestsus in FF I have a few issues with the map, that I don't think I'm the only one having.

Gernades were removed from the map, which at the time seemed like a good idea. But we've come to discover the map is nearly impossible to defend now.

After two runs of O, a defender will be out of gernades and it's like a free round for the offense to get by, unless the defense is.

Offense gets to come right back at the D with fresh gernades every run. But defense doesn't get a chance to restock.

I would like to see 2 primary gernades given atleast to all spawns, and maybe half of a class's 2ndary gernades in the upper spawns.

I understand the reason why gernades were taken out to reduce spam for this map. But as we play this map it's definately noticable that spam doesn't work the same in FF as it does in TFC.

Congestus is hard enough for defense to defend, the lack of gernades is making it impossible.

2nd request is to add a teleport system (like openfire_b2 has) that will teleport you from the bottom respawn to the respawn by the capture point.

I don't know about anyone else but I spawn most of the time in the lower spawn for some reason, and it's infuriating to get back all the way to the top to get into position when a good scout can make 2 full runs in the time it takes you to get back up there.

This map is waay faster in FF than it is in TFC because concing is soo much easier so the lack of gernades and the down time to get back into position is just killing the defense to the point of it not being as fun as tfc's congestus.

I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way because I would really like to see these two tweaks implimented to bring back some of what congestus was.
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:09 PM   #2
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More nades = more rape of the O

Teleports or some kind of fast elev = ftw
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:43 PM   #3
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Hmm lets put it this way. most of the time people run scout on congestus making grenades cheap to use. If you can't kill a scout without using a grenade you suck mostly. get better at your class your playing. Next More grenades means more spam. Me and shadow did a play test on congestus with full nades and you wouldn't believe how spammy it gets. When the flag goes down into ramp room, all the demoman/Hw has to do is spam mervs on the flag due to the respawn being so close. It was causeing some FPS drops. Bring in more nades also means the offence gets more nades. So its kind of a lose lose situation. It will making killing SG's and Soldiers/demoman easyer now with 4 nades instead of 2. Cause if he has 2 nades mostly likely there gonna be spent on killing SG's, but if he has 4 nades then he can probably take down all SG's and Some D defenders as well. The map in general requires minimal DMing. Its all about concing.

Last edited by Darkness; 01-18-2008 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:09 PM   #4
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O_O

It's grenades. Two people made the mistake and I had to correct it.

Also, yes, I agree. Defending this map without an engineer who knows what he is doing is hard. Personally, if this is possible, I think a 'timed' grenade release would be a better fix for this map. Say, for every two minutes you stay alive you get a primary grenade and for every four a secondary.

No ammo.

No health.

No armor.

Just grenades.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:19 PM   #5
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I have to agree with the author this map is awsome, but I disagree anything needs changing this is the most fun map I've ever played on FF.

Try getting a decent demo on the flag makes it very hard to attack, I am a noob demo but working essentially on my own held the offence off for about 10 minutes, and not just scouts either, medics and soldiers etc...
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
Hmm lets put it this way. most of the time people run scout on congestus making grenades cheap to use. If you can't kill a scout without using a grenade you suck mostly. get better at your class your playing. Next More grenades means more spam. Me and shadow did a play test on congestus with full nades and you wouldn't believe how spammy it gets. When the flag goes down into ramp room, all the demoman/Hw has to do is spam mervs on the flag due to the respawn being so close. It was causeing some FPS drops. Bring in more nades also means the offence gets more nades. So its kind of a lose lose situation. It will making killing SG's and Soldiers/demoman easyer now with 4 nades instead of 2. Cause if he has 2 nades mostly likely there gonna be spent on killing SG's, but if he has 4 nades then he can probably take down all SG's and Some D defenders as well. The map in general requires minimal DMing. Its all about concing.
Well if you actually read my post instead of jumping directly to your conclusion, I asked for 2ndary nades in the upper spawn, not in the lower spawn at all. That's where the spam comes in, in the lower ramp area. Note I did not ask for 2ndary nades for the lower area at all, where did I say that? Man read posts thoroughly before commenting.

Plus adding nades could be a simple as just another pack in respawn that works on a longer timer.

Telling a person to get better at his class and primary weapons is soo completely stupid because this game was built around nades. What's all this fuss about TF2 not having nades if nades weren't important? They're a fundemental part of the game which defenders loose in about 3-4 runs. Leaving him completely nadeless or suiciding after every couple runs.

I use grenades, so do a shit load of other people in our strategies to defend.

Scouts aren't the only offense, especially on pubs, you continually see demoman, soldiers, engies, and even HW's running O on that map for pubs because it's a small yard anyone can cross. In matches there will be low numbers and more skill to limit spam.

The whole issue of spam for this map is the lower ramp area, again didn't ask for anything down ther except for 2 primary nades, and a teleport up top. The spam comes from mirvs.

About offense having 4 nades, gee it worked in TFC congestus, why? Because it don't matter if they have 4 nades or 2 nades, they only have a limited amount of life. With defense running out of nades very quickly they're actually more free to run around and do what they want with their own nades. 2 nades or 4 nades, a medic still will die from a solly with a single nade rocket or shotty usually. Problem is the solly can't do that cause he runs out of primaries right away.

Scouts and medics move fast enough on that map that I can have the same guy appear at the cap point before I'm fully reloaded if I mulched 2 people in a row. How is that fair to him that he can't even reload to stop the next wave? We need our nades up top.

I have yet to find anyone that's been able to defend the cap point consistently and efficiently. He'll run out of nades, so the enemy's start flowing past him, or he suicides and spawns in the damn basement, and takes a shit load of time to get back up there.

I still believe that a medic with 4 nades won't be more effective when he's going up against a solly with nades each time. A medic with 2 nades and 3 concs will eventually bypass the solly all together once he knows all the solly has is his rockets and shotty. That's what I do anyways, once I've run into a solly a couple times up top all I need to do is waste one of my concs to move him to the side and do my thing, I don't even fear them anymore.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Telling a person to get better at his class and primary weapons is soo completely stupid because this game was built around nades
No the game was not built around grenades. Priming a grenade at every enemy you see should tell you something. There are plenty of times when you dont even nade them. I mainly use when fighting O demo/sollys. Congestus if fine and should stay that way. I believe its balanced enough. Nades=spam!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I still believe that a medic with 4 nades won't be more effective when he's going up against a solly with nades each time.
Yes he will. the medic will have his nade primed before a solly does and a few shots with a shot gun he is dead. Nades are good for short distances. Congestus on the other hand has alot of open space making it better for the shotgun as opposed to using nades. If a solly is standing near the flag all a medic has to do is prime a nade and throw it from cap point to him blow up and stand back in shotty him to death. the medic will react in time when he sees the solly throwing nades at him and get out of the way reducing damage taken. Now if he was a good medic he wouldn't be dming a solly but a SG or going for flag.

Last edited by Darkness; 01-18-2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:42 PM   #8
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Well when this map was tested, it was on 1.0 when the blast radius of the nade was bigger. Now the Grenade blast radius is smaller so there is less spam then before, but I still say we should leave the map as it is.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:55 PM   #9
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No the game was not built around grenades. Priming a grenade at every enemy you see should tell you something.
Man you're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say every enemy. It still takes skill and know how to use your ammunition properly. Infact I specifically said 3-4 runs of an offensive player before the solly runs out of nades. That comment alone should have keyed you in that I wasn't thinking of priming for every enemy cause on that map that would be exactly 2 runs.

The solly having nades thrown him at the flag wouldn't have nades thrown at him, if just 1 person could defend the cap point. But nobody can defend it, why? Cause any defender is at his strongest upon a respawn. At any other point offense is coming at them fully armed, even with full concs! (because everyone knows how to prime a conc and grab a pack before leaving the base) yet as soon as the defender uses one of his gernades, he's weaker.

So seriously where does the skill come in to beating defense in that map? The only time I see defense actually stop anything is if all their players are D. I've all but stopped playing Offense on that map, there's no challenge in it one bit, raping the D 90% of the time isn't really fun. Tell me what is the point of giving defenders any nades at all then if you expect them to play without them while trying not to die? Or do you want mass suicides all the time?

One of the reasons why I feel this change is nescessary is because tfc_congestus worked, I can remember a thousand times where a defender was able to lock down the cap point and upper spawn side permanently. I have yet to find anyone do it in FF.

I remember sollies being able to lock down the main ramp! But lack of nades equates into an ever weakening defense while the offense stays just as strong. I don't see the balance in that one bit, and to sacrifice balance in fear of a little spam seems ludacris.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammock
tfc_congestus worked
Yes it did work because thats TFC this is FF there are alot of differences between the 2. But why add nades if you know its gonna create a problem. The map its self is a fast capping map. TBH i think FF_congestus is more D friendly then TFC congestus is. Nades are not needed, only one who want them are unskilled players.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:26 PM   #11
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so you unbind your nade keys then, you're perfectly awesome at D to never need them?

Quote:
One change old players might notice is the lack of grenades in the resupply bags. Anyone who has dropped the flag in the ramproom/basement should know why this has been done (and I'll assume just about anyone who's ever played this map has done so)! No need to worry Medics and Scouts, the bags still fully restock concs.
Sounds to me like you made a decision based on the old tfc_congestus, and expected everyone else to who's played it to understand why they were removed.

Quote:
Yes it did work because thats TFC this is FF there are alot of differences between the 2. But why add nades if you know its gonna create a problem.
Do we really know if it'll cause problems if it isn't released to the public out of beta testing it? Again, sounds like a decision based off a game you're unwilling to compare after the fact, but totally willing to compare during the creation. So what's the more accurate post you made? Your first one you made upon release? Or the one now saying they're incomparable?
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:41 PM   #12
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Somebodys heated

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammock
so you unbind your nade keys then, you're perfectly awesome at D to never need them?
And no but im saying adding more nades would cause more spam. Can't tell you how many times i left a server due to people jsut throwing nades left and right. gets really gay when they throw multiple grenades at you because they suck. If all you know is how to throw grenades then your in trouble cause you'll never learn any skill. There is no skill in throwing grenades. Just in aiming a weapon.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:08 PM   #13
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One of the biggest problems with nades and congestus in TFC was when spies would pill spam the flag making it near impossible for anyone who is not a high-velocity scout or medic to grab it. The spy gas nade acts completely differently and any flag spam is much more managable.

In any case, the lack of grenades is Lua based so any admin can fix it up so you get nades with the ammo packs.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:10 PM   #14
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i have an idea since meds scouts only get concs D gets nothing how about having a nade bag in the top right or left spawn but if possible give maybe 1 or 2 frag grenades only no secondary's?
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:34 PM   #15
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Getting to the cap point area from inside your own base is too hard.
Maybe there should be a lift between the two resupplies?
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulja
i have an idea since meds scouts only get concs D gets nothing how about having a nade bag in the top right or left spawn but if possible give maybe 1 or 2 frag grenades only no secondary's?
Ya I honestly could care less about the 2ndaries. It's primaries the defender's need up top, and honestly the only time I ever had problems with spam on congestus was when the flag was in the pit with demos and hw's spamming mirvs.

When you can't even defend a choke point because your opponents die and respawn and are back at you within literally 20 seconds, it makes it impossible to even stop anything.

There should be a pack that gives full primaries once every 30 seconds at all respawns.

If your arguements were with the intentions I wanted the 2ndaries that badly then maybe I should have reworded what I said. 2ndaries are nice, but it's the primary nades I want back.

And a teleport from the basement to the respawn at the cap, teleport don't even have to work both ways, we just need something faster to get to the top. I spawn probably 80% of the time in the stupid bottom spawn for some damn reason and again another reason it makes defending the top hopeless.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:06 AM   #17
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I have a question Who made congestus? I know of a plugin called stripper that makes it very easy to add entities. But I don't want to fuck with somebodies map with out there permision. This would esentially be a test on a public server with out changing the lua to see how the spam/game play changes. I can also note drops in fps.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:54 AM   #18
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Shadow/Clover made this map
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:30 PM   #19
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I promise you this map does not need any more nades. A 3 person D can hold a 4 person O if you are positioned correctly. And I'm talking 2 sollies and a demo. If you add in an engy your are talking rape.

Shadow did a wonderful thing in taking away the nades from this map b/c all you ever saw in a TFC pub game of this map was spy pills and mirv's flying around everywhere. Now you see snipers, spies, O sollies and demo's, and more diverse D. I don't think capping has really changed, b/c tbh it was always a O strong map full of caps.

My vote is keep it as it is.

In regards to the tele's, I think that, although that would be nice, it would drastically change the game play of the map and probably for the worst.
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Old 01-23-2008, 03:12 AM   #20
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Without getting into the debate here, i just want to tell the creator of the map that, well, it's awesome. That is all.
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