what isn't and what is going to change thanks to the physics

[o_ivaqual]

while a believable and reactive physics engine can add much to the depth of a given gameplay, i don't think anything is really clear about Havok's impact on FF gameplay. how and how much will TF's gameplay change because of the physics ? the only thing worth of thinking i have seen is, ironically enough, a problem (i'm thinking about the spy feigning issues).
we do know that there will be no grav gun, so what is actually going to change, and what additions are going to be made (besides mostly superficial and/or cosmetic additions, i.e ragdolls, grenade behaviour) ?

[o_rebo]

This is definitely an interesting issue. Whilst the Havok engine is wonderful and fast, it does have one major problem. Consistency.

I think the philosophy of the mod is to include it where it augments and enchances the game but not to include it for the sake of it, or where it affects negatively the gameplay.

[o_ivaqual]

what do you mean by "consistency" ?
consistency in dynamics (a given object reacts a certain way when descending a stair, but comparatively reacts as it shouldn't when descending a slope ?) or in too much randomness of reactions (a grenade in the same circumstances can bounce as high as 10 meters or as low as 2 centimeters) ?

surely physics will be applied where needed, but i was kind of asking for more concrete decisions . i know the mod is far from being finished (even on paper) but i was kind of wondering if anything had been set in stone regarding decisive changes or additions to the gameplay by physics

[o_voipme]

Originally Posted by nagual678

what do you mean by "consistency" ?

Ragdoll effect and the like, I'd assume of the top of my head.

[o_redbeard]

Why not replace spy feigning with spy invisibility?

edit- obviously the spy cant move while invisible.

[Jiggles]

Feigning is cool and would be really neat w/ ragdolls. However, if it's too much of a hassle, then I'd imagine their 2nd choice would be some form of invisibility...

[o_vanquish]

Physics affects a lot of what people have come to love in TFC. Ramp sliding at high speed for example, will it still be possible? Will grenades/pipes still slide up sloped surfaces? I'm assuming air control will be left in the game.

[o_dr zauis]

i was just thinking about it, how about invisibity, but you can only take a certain amount of steps once invisible...say 5 or so....just enough to hide in a corner or sumthin
I only suggest that if feigning never works out

[o_vanquish]

Well if invisibility were added it should only work when the player is still and crouched down, making it as similar to feigning death as possible. You could never walk while feigned, why should you be able to walk while invisible?

[o_monkeystevie]

I don't know if invisibily would fit in with the balance the dev team are after. If it was used in any way at all i think there would have to at least be a time limit on how long u can stay invisible for, say dependant on your armour points. At full ap u can stay invisible for 30secs; at half u can stay invisible for 15secs and so on.
Take a league game for example. You go into the flag room and go invisible, the def resets and is all around you, the flag is capped and returns, u make off with/throw out flag. If you were a spy and feigning there the def would at least have a chance to kill you as you're visible. Its hardly fitting to the balance of the game imo. I know the game isnt going to be built around league play, but with both league and public play in mind. Making the public players happy while contribute massively to the success of this mod.

In conclusion i don't think i'd like to see this feature in FF (as much fun as it would be:P)

[o_footlong]

Let's not forget that a Spy should also not be able to shoot/knife while invisible. Invisibility should only be used as an evasive tactic, not as a combat ability. I would honestly prefer "limited time invisibility" (as described by stevie) over feigning. Feigning, in my opinion, is a weak tactic. Consider how many times you shoot at a suspicious corpse, just to be sure, and realize it's a spy. Ofcourse, then you have to walk on top of them and crowbar them, you know, just for fun.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.....Will feigned spies be able to stand up if another player is on top of them? I realize that in the "real" world, one wouldn't be able to get up if an enemy was on top of them like that, yet I feel a spy's inability to stand up and fight in that situation is inherently unfair.

Back to what I was saying earlier, feigning leaves a spy in a far too vulnerable position and it only truly comes in handy when, for example, you might feign on a sniper deck to later knife those damn bastards! To clarify my stand on invisibility, I don't believe that it should detract from health, rather it should use armor/a new energy system similar to that of an engineer's cells. Well, that's just my input. Kudos to the development team on such a wonderful creation.I can't wait to get my paws on FF.

[o_dirkpitt]

I hope they figure out feigning. As a defense person i used to walk around and shoot every body I saw, if it bled I kept shooting. Invisibility would make it way to easy for a spy to hide.

[o_eat]

Thats a very good point steve. I think if it did come down to invisibility being the only option then the spy wouldnt be completely invisible. Maybe an effect like the predator or something so that he could be seen if you are paying close attention.

[o_player]

The Predator effect would be good. It would be interesting looking out for spies that way. Or, if I was to come up with an idea along the lines of monkeystevie, maybe the Spy could be completely invisible for say, 10 - 20 seconds (I think 10 is more than enough to get past some) then once this time limits is reached, instead of just being visible straight away they could slowly reapear leaving room for that Predator effect.

[o_reynolds-wrap]

I think using shaders to decrease the spy's visibility would be a great way to deal with the feigning issue... He wouldn't be totally invisibe...like Dr-X said, you could use a shader like the water guy from the HL2 tech demos. Being in dark areas would work a lot better than brightly lit areas...

However, I think while being invisible, the spy shouldn't be able to move...at the very most, they shouldn't be able to move faster than a very slow walk. You couldn't move while feigning, so why while invisible? This way you have to choose where you hide carefully, because you can still be seen and killed if you choose a bad spot. I think doing it so the spy could be mostly invisible but can't move would be sticking pretty closely to core TF gameplay...

btw, hi, i'm new! (been a big tf fan since qwtf tho)

[o_repair man]

I'm not sure if this would make any difference concerning Predator-like invisibility, but what about people with video cards that don't use pixel shaders?

[o_curly]

Well, invisibility was originally put in Q3F as a replacement to feign so they could get the corpse polys off of the screen. However, I think that it is also a more effective and balancing (while not overpowered) way than feigning, as people can just corpse check easily.

I think that the dev team has stated that they're working on different things for the spy in this area, so I'm not sure what they're going to do. (PS: the spy is only good for runnign in and grenading the sgs and grabbing the flag as long as ff=off; there's no pretending you're on the enemy team at all.)

[o_ivaqual]

original topic = owned

[o_tantrum]

my opinion on the invisibility issue is: if anybody has ever played counter-strike, with that weird mod...i believe it's WAR3? anyway, one of the races, i believe the human alliance, after a certain # of points have been built up, has the ability to go to level 1, level 2, and level 3 invisibility, according to how many points they've accumulated.

Level 1 invisibility didn't have much of a visual difference, level 2 made you say to yourself "what the,...where was...oh...there he was..." after you die, and then level 3 got ridiculous to the point where by the time you spent 10 seconds looking for them, the round is over. i think that if invisibility were incorporated into spy capabilities, that the FF team should consider using that mods' invisiblity capabilities for the spy. I'm sure that several of the pople that read this thread so far have thought about the same thing i'm posting here, but just didn't post it.

Please, FF team, if you're considering invisibility, please think of using the same degree of invisibility as perhaps level 2 or something. OR how about: level 1 invisiblity would be when the spy is moving at full speed, because he/she is still farely visible considering the level 1 invisiblity isn't very much of a visual difference. Level 2 would be as if the spy is crouching, or walking at a normal pace. The only time the spy can go to level 3 is in a completely "feigned" or prone position, being completely still for the duration of level 3 invisibility.

Of course, the invisiblity levels wouldn't be categorized by the extent of the invisibility...the engine would automatically change invisiblity levels depending on the spy's movement, and would change the degree of invisiblity based on how the spy is moving. yes, this may be hard for the engine (i wouldn't know, i've no knowledge really in terms of the engine). and, for another idea, how about level 1 invis. can only last for so long, such as 75 seconds or so (since that's about how long the avg. spy run is...from their base to the enemy base and doing what they have to do there), and level 2 would be for about 30 seconds, and level 3 for about 10 seconds. i'm jsut giving ideas.

And PS -- i'm sorry for using the word "invisiblity"so much, i'm sure it was annoying to repeat it to yourself every other word in your head =P. ok, that's about it...if i think of any other ideas, i'll be sure to post. hope i was some help...bye bye.

[o_tantrum]

err...read that one up there ^^ =)