Whats your view about grenades in fortress games?

own3r · 05-13-2007, 10:31 AM

Whats your view about grenades in fortress games?
Would the genre be better without them?
What your view and why?

halo · 05-13-2007, 12:45 PM

Can't you post your own opinions too to get the ball rolling. It really does help to kick start a thread. Better grammar would be nice too but that's just a pet hate of mine.

Personally, and I think the majority would agree with me on this, it just wouldn't be a fortress game without grenades that can be used at the same time as your primary weapon. It adds a lot to the gameplay dynamic. They also have a slight effect of levelling the playing field. A poor player will kill a good one every now and again with a grenade. If it was just down to weapons, he wouldn't at all and that would make the game extremely hard to get into for new players and extremely frustrating for ones of lesser skill.

In TFC however, the grenades were a touch too powerful and their blast radius perhaps too large by a fraction. Personally I would like to see them scaled down a very small amount. For all people complain about spam, grenades are fundemental to TFC, it just wouldn't be the same without them.

Jifcuits · 05-13-2007, 12:48 PM

I would like to see how a fortress game plays without primary grenades or at least weaker ones. Secondary nades are a must in my opinion though

barronofhellion · 05-13-2007, 02:06 PM

both grenade types are what made tf what it is. without them it would not be.

IvaQuaL · 05-13-2007, 02:27 PM

i would go halfway between TF2 and FF, and leave classes with only one kind of grenade at their disposition (more often than not removing the frag grenade). this would put the focus back on weapons to deal damage and lead to a lot less spamful and sometimes frankly unpleasant gameplay (at least for me)

FrenchToast · 05-13-2007, 02:34 PM

I dig the spam. It's the only way I ever win when I'm mulching.

mistermojo · 05-13-2007, 02:40 PM

lower radius and damage of frags, secondary are fine

it's all up to the map maker to control the spam

Thor-Stryker · 05-13-2007, 03:39 PM

While I'll miss secondary grenades, I look forward to a more skill-based combat system rather than chucking grenades.

Valve really isn't kidding when classes blend over if you give them all the same grenade.

allisvoid · 05-13-2007, 04:55 PM

i think being able to use your grenades and weapons at the same time makes TF games what they are... however... they DO get spammy and they DO unite all the classes. i think it's been said before but "a medic with a grenade can deal just as much damage as a soldier with a grenade" ... to an extent of course because the medic has no rockets, only a shotgun.

you can also think about it this way - say you have a player who's played for YEARS and is good at most areas of the game. then you have a new player who knows nothing really but he's recently learned to throw grenades correctly. the problem now is the new guy can whoop the veterans ass just because he can throw grenades well. all of a sudden being a veteran means nothing. this of course is only a problem in TFC currently - who knows how it will play out in FF. one can also see this as sort of a "leveling the playing field" as stated previously in this thread. it goes both ways. now that the newbie can throw grenades he can hang with the "big boys."

it will be interesting to see how the game plays WITHOUT grenades and WITH grenades with a reduced radius and damage in comparison to the current way they are in TFC. it will also be interesting to see how the game plays without bunny hop (TF2) and with the new movement methods FF is re-introducing into game-play.

my simple opinion: grenades now are too spammy at times and tend to be far too powerful with too big of a blast radius. the idea of the grenades in the game being used side by side with your primary or secondary weapon is what makes TF TF. removing them could be a disaster but no one will know for sure until it is released.

own3r · 05-13-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allisvoid

i think being able to use your grenades and weapons at the same time makes TF games what they are... however... they DO get spammy and they DO unite all the classes. i think it's been said before but "a medic with a grenade can deal just as much damage as a soldier with a grenade" ... to an extent of course because the medic has no rockets, only a shotgun.

you can also think about it this way - say you have a player who's played for YEARS and is good at most areas of the game. then you have a new player who knows nothing really but he's recently learned to throw grenades correctly. the problem now is the new guy can whoop the veterans ass just because he can throw grenades well. all of a sudden being a veteran means nothing. this of course is only a problem in TFC currently - who knows how it will play out in FF. one can also see this as sort of a "leveling the playing field" as stated previously in this thread. it goes both ways. now that the newbie can throw grenades he can hang with the "big boys."

it will be interesting to see how the game plays WITHOUT grenades and WITH grenades with a reduced radius and damage in comparison to the current way they are in TFC. it will also be interesting to see how the game plays without bunny hop (TF2) and with the new movement methods FF is re-introducing into game-play.

my simple opinion: grenades now are too spammy at times and tend to be far too powerful with too big of a blast radius. the idea of the grenades in the game being used side by side with your primary or secondary weapon is what makes TF TF. removing them could be a disaster but no one will know for sure until it is released.

You forget that a veteran can hear the noob comming with his perfect echo sounding hearing (read wh

) so primes his grenade earlier and kills the noob before he turns the corner. Noob friendly? I don't think so. The whole concept of priming grenades is not familiar either.

Grenades in both TFC and FF seem very powerful and earn lots of cheap kills without much effort from the player when you know how to do it. When you don't know you just spam and don't really kill anything unless you get lucky or happen to be on dustbowl.

PsYcNeT · 05-13-2007, 06:19 PM

I wonder if pandering my agenda in the general forum is a good idea...

I mean...agenda?

*whistles while looking away*

own3r · 05-13-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I wonder if pandering my agenda in the general forum is a good idea...

I mean...agenda?

*whistles while looking away*

Let the people have their say is all I can say to that, I was asked for my opinion I didn't start the thread with it.

PsYcNeT · 05-13-2007, 06:48 PM

Fair enough, I'll give you that much.

As it stands though, we're on a forum for a game that does have grenades. Wouldn't a thread like this go along better with 15 other threads on it that are currently in progress on the Steam forums?

I think with the right tweaking, grenades serve an irreplacable purpose in the game within the way it has been built.

Had the dev's decided to go a no grenades route 2 years ago, that would be a different story.

Paft · 05-13-2007, 06:59 PM

Why did you have to carry this descussion into a new thread. It's boring.

iMpi · 05-13-2007, 07:57 PM

What do you have to bhop, predict where the guy infront of you is going to be in .5 seconds and shoot a rocket there. All while priming a nade and trying to be unpredictable enough not to get hit. While all that trying to avoid grenades. Then there is conc-ing, rocket jumping, everything. Fortress games take so much skill.. thats why we love them : D There are always new things to learn and get better at.

allisvoid · 05-13-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo

They also have a slight effect of leveling the playing field. A poor player will kill a good one every now and again with a grenade. If it was just down to weapons, he wouldn't at all and that would make the game extremely hard to get into for new players and extremely frustrating for ones of lesser skill.

i am not alone on this "grenades level the playing field" thing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by own3r

Grenades in both TFC and FF seem very powerful and earn lots of cheap kills without much effort from the player when you know how to do it.

are you beta testing FF?

also, if you say that grenades "earn lots of cheap kills" then doesn't that make them noobie friendly? you do not have to know how to prime a grenade and throw it at just the right moment to kill someone with it.

own3r · 05-13-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allisvoid

i am not alone on this "grenades level the playing field" thing...

are you beta testing FF?

also, if you say that grenades "earn lots of cheap kills" then doesn't that make them noobie friendly? you do not have to know how to prime a grenade and throw it at just the right moment to kill someone with it.

Notice I said "when you know how to do it" a noob wouldn't

Ihmhi · 05-13-2007, 10:51 PM

I have a question I would like to bring to the proverbial table. What if one of the grenades were removed for each class, leaving this:

Scout: Conc
Sniper: Frag
Solly: Frag
Demo: MIRV
Medic: Conc
Heavy: Frag
Pyro: Napalm
Spy: Gas
Engy: EMP

Something like this. How do you think that would change play?

own3r · 05-13-2007, 11:03 PM

Scout/medic would be more ballanced so there wouldn't be such a huge advantage over scout without a frag.

Pyro would be less effective at offence/defence but still just as fun to play really 4 napalms are a lot to play with.

Soldier, not a lot different from what he is now the nail grenade doesn't hugely effect the game.

Sniper unchanged, though personally I dont think they should have grenades as they are a distance orientated class.

Demo not that much different with the pipe launcher and all, the pipes are also quite easy to use now so more effective than TFC.

Spy's grenades are useful for taking out sg's so a frag would be good there, then again leaving the gas grenade wouldn't make a big difference.

Engie less able to defend himself but emps are still very effective versus heavier classes so its not a huge blow.

Heavy not all that different but less spam capability.

IvaQuaL · 05-13-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by own3r

Grenades in both TFC and FF seem very powerful

Yeah, but it's still a lot less obnoxious in FF. The range is drastically diminished and now you have to kinda aim the grenade too to really deal some serious damage to someone.

05-13-2007, 10:31 AM	#1
own3r Custom mapper Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Whats your view about grenades in fortress games? Whats your view about grenades in fortress games? Would the genre be better without them? What your view and why?

05-13-2007, 02:34 PM	#6
FrenchToast The 1337est D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Omagosh Canada. Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	I dig the spam. It's the only way I ever win when I'm mulching. __________________ James, while John had had 'had', had had 'had had' ; 'had had' had had a better effect on the teacher.

05-13-2007, 10:51 PM	#18
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	I have a question I would like to bring to the proverbial table. What if one of the grenades were removed for each class, leaving this: Scout: Conc Sniper: Frag Solly: Frag Demo: MIRV Medic: Conc Heavy: Frag Pyro: Napalm Spy: Gas Engy: EMP Something like this. How do you think that would change play? __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

05-13-2007, 12:45 PM	#2
halo Join Date: May 2007 Location: Barnsley, UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Can't you post your own opinions too to get the ball rolling. It really does help to kick start a thread. Better grammar would be nice too but that's just a pet hate of mine. Personally, and I think the majority would agree with me on this, it just wouldn't be a fortress game without grenades that can be used at the same time as your primary weapon. It adds a lot to the gameplay dynamic. They also have a slight effect of levelling the playing field. A poor player will kill a good one every now and again with a grenade. If it was just down to weapons, he wouldn't at all and that would make the game extremely hard to get into for new players and extremely frustrating for ones of lesser skill. In TFC however, the grenades were a touch too powerful and their blast radius perhaps too large by a fraction. Personally I would like to see them scaled down a very small amount. For all people complain about spam, grenades are fundemental to TFC, it just wouldn't be the same without them.

05-13-2007, 12:48 PM	#3
Jifcuits Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I would like to see how a fortress game plays without primary grenades or at least weaker ones. Secondary nades are a must in my opinion though

05-13-2007, 02:06 PM	#4
barronofhellion Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	both grenade types are what made tf what it is. without them it would not be.

05-13-2007, 02:27 PM	#5
IvaQuaL Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i would go halfway between TF2 and FF, and leave classes with only one kind of grenade at their disposition (more often than not removing the frag grenade). this would put the focus back on weapons to deal damage and lead to a lot less spamful and sometimes frankly unpleasant gameplay (at least for me)

05-13-2007, 02:40 PM	#7
mistermojo the pumps dont work Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	lower radius and damage of frags, secondary are fine it's all up to the map maker to control the spam

05-13-2007, 03:39 PM	#8
Thor-Stryker Spybox Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, GA Class/Position: Sniper, Defensive Gametype: Capture Point Affiliations: Unguilded Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	While I'll miss secondary grenades, I look forward to a more skill-based combat system rather than chucking grenades. Valve really isn't kidding when classes blend over if you give them all the same grenade.

05-13-2007, 04:55 PM	#9
allisvoid what is tfc? Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: houston tx Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i think being able to use your grenades and weapons at the same time makes TF games what they are... however... they DO get spammy and they DO unite all the classes. i think it's been said before but "a medic with a grenade can deal just as much damage as a soldier with a grenade" ... to an extent of course because the medic has no rockets, only a shotgun. you can also think about it this way - say you have a player who's played for YEARS and is good at most areas of the game. then you have a new player who knows nothing really but he's recently learned to throw grenades correctly. the problem now is the new guy can whoop the veterans ass just because he can throw grenades well. all of a sudden being a veteran means nothing. this of course is only a problem in TFC currently - who knows how it will play out in FF. one can also see this as sort of a "leveling the playing field" as stated previously in this thread. it goes both ways. now that the newbie can throw grenades he can hang with the "big boys." it will be interesting to see how the game plays WITHOUT grenades and WITH grenades with a reduced radius and damage in comparison to the current way they are in TFC. it will also be interesting to see how the game plays without bunny hop (TF2) and with the new movement methods FF is re-introducing into game-play. my simple opinion: grenades now are too spammy at times and tend to be far too powerful with too big of a blast radius. the idea of the grenades in the game being used side by side with your primary or secondary weapon is what makes TF TF. removing them could be a disaster but no one will know for sure until it is released.

05-13-2007, 06:19 PM	#11
PsYcNeT Black Chancellor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta eh? Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I wonder if pandering my agenda in the general forum is a good idea... I mean...agenda? whistles while looking away

05-13-2007, 06:48 PM	#13
PsYcNeT Black Chancellor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta eh? Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Fair enough, I'll give you that much. As it stands though, we're on a forum for a game that does have grenades. Wouldn't a thread like this go along better with 15 other threads on it that are currently in progress on the Steam forums? I think with the right tweaking, grenades serve an irreplacable purpose in the game within the way it has been built. Had the dev's decided to go a no grenades route 2 years ago, that would be a different story.

05-13-2007, 06:59 PM	#14
Paft Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK - http://forums.fortress-forever.com Class/Position: [O] Med Gametype: CTF/Skills Posts Rated Helpful 67 Times	Why did you have to carry this descussion into a new thread. It's boring.

05-13-2007, 07:57 PM	#15
iMpi Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	What do you have to bhop, predict where the guy infront of you is going to be in .5 seconds and shoot a rocket there. All while priming a nade and trying to be unpredictable enough not to get hit. While all that trying to avoid grenades. Then there is conc-ing, rocket jumping, everything. Fortress games take so much skill.. thats why we love them : D There are always new things to learn and get better at.

05-13-2007, 11:03 PM	#19
own3r Custom mapper Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Scout/medic would be more ballanced so there wouldn't be such a huge advantage over scout without a frag. Pyro would be less effective at offence/defence but still just as fun to play really 4 napalms are a lot to play with. Soldier, not a lot different from what he is now the nail grenade doesn't hugely effect the game. Sniper unchanged, though personally I dont think they should have grenades as they are a distance orientated class. Demo not that much different with the pipe launcher and all, the pipes are also quite easy to use now so more effective than TFC. Spy's grenades are useful for taking out sg's so a frag would be good there, then again leaving the gas grenade wouldn't make a big difference. Engie less able to defend himself but emps are still very effective versus heavier classes so its not a huge blow. Heavy not all that different but less spam capability.

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