Problems with the nailgun.

[Gator-]

you suggested to get rid of the super nailgun? You're nuts. Go play TF2 Medic

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SirTiger

you suggested to get rid of the super nailgun? You're nuts. Go play TF2 Medic

Nah. I suggested to give the super nailgun to the scout and spy and to lower the amount of damage it does to players. The SG dies just as fast as a soldier currently =\.

[Gator-]

Not in matches/scrims where an engineer will be hitting it, making it hard to even take it down (and the fact that you will receive a rocket in the face any second). Rarely do you see a medic owning a hwguy/SG in a straight line.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SirTiger

Rarely do you see a medic owning a hwguy/SG in a straight line.

Not really so much SG's, but HW's? Yeah, always.

Also, even under pristine circumstances and medium distance, an HW can kill a medic. However, note the health I have left. It's not like the HW has much choice in movement. All the medic has to do is keep his x-hair in the general area of the HW and, because of the nature of the nails (as I showed in the SG vid) they don't have to actually hit to cause damage. All this while the HW has pititful movement and damage =\.

1.0 plz.

[Gator-]

That doesn't mean that they have to destroy how the medic is right now.

The real problem is the hwguy and we all know that.

He gets owned because of how the devs ruined the class .

[battery]

I disagree.

I think both HW and medic have problems.

HWGuy's autocannon is not deadly enough.

Medic's supernailgun has an accuracy bug. I do not think the developers intended to have nailgun inflict damage even if the nails miss. Until they have fixed this, supernail gun may be overpowered.

So we have one balancing issue, and one technical issue. The video used HW as an example because HWGuy is big and has many hit points. Any missed nails would be near-misses, due to the HW's size.

[ViLE]

those are good vids in that they are (even if the sound is F'd) quite informative.

It's true, you won't see a medic SNGing a HW down but if you were both in a corridor then you very well might get some nails and with the way their damage registers the medic might wind up on top.

HWs really really need fixed, but nails are hard to land, except for on stationary targets like SGs. I think nails are doing so much damage because the SGs were/are so ridiculously durable that it just turned out that the balancers decided it would be balanced to have the SGs like they are if the medics had enough damage (in their nails) to counter that durability in some fashion.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by SirTiger

That doesn't mean that they have to destroy how the medic is right now.

The real problem is the hwguy and we all know that.

He gets owned because of how the devs ruined the class .

Nah, it doesn't destroy how the medic is, it makes it so he actually uses his shotty instead of his nail gun. It also gives the scout some much needed firepower.

Currently, the medic can do, about, 99 damage a second. Nails fire at about 9.2 a second and each does about 11 damage. That's a ton. That also means that SG's are super tough as it takes exactly 3 seconds to take one out (nonstop nails of course... it can go down instantly with a grenade and half a second of nails).

HW is a big problem, but medics are also a problem as well. They take a ton of damage, are fast, will always have grenades, and can dish out a ton of damage to boot. They're more than the jack of all trades =\.

[Agent_W]

Well, it validates the worth of a super nailgun in a deathmatch situation, I can tell you that much!

I find everyone else's input plausible, but unfortunately, it's not my due to say anything different than what was already said. I do concur that the HW Guy class does need to be worked on a bit, and same goes with the medic balancing issue.

[Agent_W]

Originally Posted by Credge

Lol? Shut the fuck up you putz. I confused terms.

Oh yeah, I wanted to add a short note to that. We all knew, to include yours truly, what you really meant by conc immunity. It's more of a pseudo immunity that you can shake off a conc before you know you were conced to begin with!

Ehh, we've all been there, when we say things different than what we actually intend to say. I would know; I learned general electronics lol.

[RocKwell]

Originally Posted by Credge

This is what needs to be done:

1. Get rid of the super nail gun.

2. Make the regular nail gun do what the super nailgun does to SG's.

3. Nailgun problem is fixed.

Altnernative: Give the scout and spy the supernail gun, lower super nailgun damage to players.

I'm confused by this. Why get rid of the super nail gun and up the damage on regular? Will medics have any nailgun at all (bad idea)? Reg. nailguns would be more powerful, thus scouts can take out sentries faster (bad idea)? For the alternative, why even have two nailguns if scouts and spies get the super? No one is ever going to use the worse one.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by RocKwell

I'm confused by this. Why get rid of the super nail gun and up the damage on regular? Will medics have any nailgun at all (bad idea)? Reg. nailguns would be more powerful, thus scouts can take out sentries faster (bad idea)? For the alternative, why even have two nailguns if scouts and spies get the super? No one is ever going to use the worse one.

It's pretty simple.

1. Remove the super nailgun.

2. Increase the damage the normal nailgun does to SG's.

3. Give the medic the normal nailgun.

Problem is solved.

I thought the alternative explained that a bit, but I guess not. The alternative suggests the removal of the regular nailgun and simply giving the normal nailgun to the scout and spy, however, that doesn't solve the problem with it being able to kill a soldier in three seconds, or, solve the issue that it still completely destroys HW's at medium range.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Credge

HW is a big problem, but medics are also a problem as well. They take a ton of damage, are fast, will always have grenades, and can dish out a ton of damage to boot. They're more than the jack of all trades =\.

Ok you have officially lost me.

Seriously on any given day (clan day) a medic has to face a combination of the following:

1 or 2 engies, Sg's, and dispensers
2 or 3 Soldiers
1 demoman + pipes

I think they should take a ton of damage, be fucking fast, have nades, and be able to fight back...if not your never going to see a single cap. I use my Shotty as med all the time, it goes Shotty for People and SNG for Sg's...that simple. It's harder then hell to hit an Sg in a combat situation about 75% of the time...generally your getting bounced around by rockets, pipes are flying by your head, engi is shooting the crap out of you and each of those guys has nades (mirvs, frag's, nail's, emp's) all the while your conc'd AND you have to avoid the Sg b/c if it locks onto to you and catches you with a rocket you may as well just bend over and take it.

You can not buff the D and nerf the O and expect everything to work out. The O actually has a fighting chance atm and it should stay that way.

WRT the Sg / nail not hitting thing...have you looked at the hitboxes for the Sg? How do you know that your not hitting the Sg? Just b/c the model isn't getting hit doesn't mean the Sg isn't supposed to be getting hit! So stop saying the nails are wrong until you look at all aspects of the game.

Finally fatty...yes he is fucked we all know this, but I have played fatty in a scrim and meds and scouts still don't rape you like you demonstrated...YES they will get past you b/c the CoF and RoF on the AC are still fucked up a bit...but you aren't going to get owned. And your standing still which is stupid...I suggest you have that same medic conc around, land, and run at you trying to kill you. Do this and you will see how your scenario is flawed b/c he won't be able to aim right at you 100% of the time and you will b/c even if the CoF / RoF are fucked, once he gets in close he's a dead medic.

Man I love your damage thread as it's invaluable information, but this thread is worthless...none of that works in game and it's the gameplay we need to address to ensure the game lives on.

[Discipline]

Originally Posted by Credge

It also gives the scout some much needed firepower.

Not trying to flame.. but if you're trying to kill things with scout you're playing as the wrong class. I think the SNG is set up fine.. I dont think I could word it any better than how satan already did. Very rarely will you find an SG by itself, there is almost always an engy sitting right next to it repairing it.. thus if you lower the dmg output of the SNG you can forget about taking an sg out unless you go solly/spy/demo... something heavier which in my opinion would make engies too powerful. Then you have to nerf them.. which will make someone else complain about a new problem.. blah blah.

my 2 cents... leave it the way it is.

[KubeDawg]

Removing the super nailgun is a horrible idea... While we're at it, lets completely remove all of the medic's weapons, then chop his arms/legs off, rendering him completely useless.

It's not the super nailgun that is the issue, it's a combination of things.

If you have your SG built to lvl 3 at 100% health and you have 200 cells, you can keep your SG up even after a medic has drained all his nails. Same goes for the scout. If a grenade is thrown, the angle at which the medic has to throw it is often different than the angle of the nails being fired, which should also allow you to keep your SG up. Finally, if there are any back packs around, you can quickly grab one and get back to your SG before it's blown up and save it...

Generally though, you'd probably want to have a fellow teammate trying to DM that medic as if your SG goes down, the enemy will likely cap.

[Vicious]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Removing the super nailgun is a horrible idea... While we're at it, lets completely remove all of the medic's weapons, then chop his arms/legs off, rendering him completely useless.

It's not the super nailgun that is the issue, it's a combination of things.

If you have your SG built to lvl 3 at 100% health and you have 200 cells, you can keep your SG up even after a medic has drained all his nails. Same goes for the scout. If a grenade is thrown, the angle at which the medic has to throw it is often different than the angle of the nails being fired, which should also allow you to keep your SG up. Finally, if there are any back packs around, you can quickly grab one and get back to your SG before it's blown up and save it...

Generally though, you'd probably want to have a fellow teammate trying to DM that medic as if your SG goes down, the enemy will likely cap.

Not if he does it right. His nails, nades, large amount of health and armor makes the medic the super saijin of FF. Also, you don't have to grab the flag and take it all the way home to win a clan match. You have to touch it and throw it. Repeat. Right now, nothing stops the medic from doing just that.

I mean nothing. Absolutely no class in the game is capable of stopping it. The most skilled medic in the game vs. the most skilled ANYTHING ELSE and the medic wins. HANDS DOWN.

[Discipline]

Originally Posted by Vicious

Not if he does it right. His nails, nades, large amount of health and armor makes the medic the super saijin of FF. Also, you don't have to grab the flag and take it all the way home to win a clan match. You have to touch it and throw it. Repeat. Right now, nothing stops the medic from doing just that.

I mean nothing. Absolutely no class in the game is capable of stopping it. The most skilled medic in the game vs. the most skilled ANYTHING ELSE and the medic wins. HANDS DOWN.

Thats why it is a TEAM based game. Have an engy keeping the SG up and a solly there to help protect him. anyway if you do get close enough to toss a nade you can be sure as hell many shots + a rocket or two are coming in your direction from the sg alone- not to mention whatever nades from the engy/his teammates are thrown your way.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Vicious

Not if he does it right. His nails, nades, large amount of health and armor makes the medic the super saijin of FF. Also, you don't have to grab the flag and take it all the way home to win a clan match. You have to touch it and throw it. Repeat. Right now, nothing stops the medic from doing just that.

I mean nothing. Absolutely no class in the game is capable of stopping it. The most skilled medic in the game vs. the most skilled ANYTHING ELSE and the medic wins. HANDS DOWN.

bull...that is straight up bull poop.

A solly will take a med any day, a demo stops a med dead in his tracks, and an Sg positioned correct and defended properly will stop a med.

There is an art to engy as with any other class. If a newb tries to engy, yes he will fail against a proficient med, but a skilled engy can take a med any day.

I suggest you read this tutorial by our own aftershock...yes it's for a TFC engy, but the ideals are the same. Read it, learn it, master it then complain about the meds IF they are still a problem (my bet is you will find 100% they are not).

Also remember that if 100% of the time the med can't do anything, you have officially nerfed the class to shit. You have to remember balances. There has to be a medium at which both classes have a fighting chance and skill determines the victor and atm I think we are very close to that with almost all the classes.

[Hoopajoo]

Don't forget the registry problems as shown in this thread:
http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=15130

And vicious... Like 2 rockets almost kills a medic...

Also, HW is the real problem! Way too nerfed!

[Credge]

Edit: If the tone seems angry, it's not supposed to.



People, please, read what I'm suggesting before you say "NO WAY!" You're stopping at #1 and saying "NOOO!"

The super nail gun fires at, pretty much, the same rate as the nailgun (I think the difference is .2 a second).

The super nail gun, currently, can kill players faster than any other class using any single one weapon at a medium to long range (except the sniper).

What I'm suggesting, again, is to remove the SNG and replace it with a gun that is already in the game: The regular nail gun. Then, increase the damage the regular nail gun does to buildables and keep the damage it does to people. This weapon should not be a primary DM weapon, although it is.

Originally Posted by Discipline

Not trying to flame.. but if you're trying to kill things with scout you're playing as the wrong class. I think the SNG is set up fine.. I dont think I could word it any better than how satan already did. Very rarely will you find an SG by itself, there is almost always an engy sitting right next to it repairing it.. thus if you lower the dmg output of the SNG you can forget about taking an sg out unless you go solly/spy/demo... something heavier which in my opinion would make engies too powerful. Then you have to nerf them.. which will make someone else complain about a new problem.. blah blah.

my 2 cents... leave it the way it is.

Again, a problem with reading.

Currently there is absolutely no reason to go scout unless the map requires 3 concs to reach the flag. 99% of maps do not. That speed is redundant, as you said, because not only will an SG exist, but it will be guarded by everyone on the planet ensuring that by the time you reach the FR, you will only have a few health left.

That speed doesn't do anything.

Sure, if they run 2 sollies and an engy in a 5v then the sollies may have some trouble reloading, but that SG will kill those scouts regardless of if the soldier damages them the majority of the time. If it doesn't kill them by the time they reach the flag, it will by the time they toss it.

And yeah, you can get the flag out as a scout, but it not only doesn't happen often, but it requires an intense amount of luck to do.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Ok you have officially lost me.

Sorry Satan, but I'm going to have to say that you're absolutely wrong on every level here, but I'll start from the beginning.

Seriously on any given day (clan day) a medic has to face a combination of the following:

1 or 2 engies, Sg's, and dispensers
2 or 3 Soldiers
1 demoman + pipes

And scouts don't? You're not passing any class without taking some damage as a scout. It just doesn't happen. Everything a medic faces a scout has to face. Wouldn't this, you know, make scouts useless?

I think they should take a ton of damage, be fucking fast, have nades, and be able to fight back...if not your never going to see a single cap.

This is CORRECT. You won't see a single cap. Why? Because the SG is absolutely too powerful, but that isn't the point of this thread. There is already a thread out there that addresses this and the majority of people agree that the SG is absolutely over powered. Think you can defend monkey, congestus, startec, session, SD2, aardvark... or just about any other map besides 2fort without an SG? Go ahead and try.

I use my Shotty as med all the time, it goes Shotty for People and SNG for Sg's...that simple.

And that is WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IT SHOULD BE! However, the super shotty, unless you are painfully close to your opponent, will not do more damage than the super nail gun.

It's harder then hell to hit an Sg in a combat situation about 75% of the time...generally your getting bounced around by rockets, pipes are flying by your head, engi is shooting the crap out of you and each of those guys has nades (mirvs, frag's, nail's, emp's) all the while your conc'd AND you have to avoid the Sg b/c if it locks onto to you and catches you with a rocket you may as well just bend over and take it.

So wait, is the engy hitting his gun or shooting you? He can't be doing both. Even further, it's INCREDIBLY EASY to hit a stationary target while you are moving than to hit a moving target while you are stationary. That is simply common sense.

I also really don't understand what this has to do with what I've suggested. The nailgun does too much damage to players. I've suggested a reduction of this. I've also suggested that the spy and scout either get this version of the super nailgun or to change the normal nailgun, give the normal nailgun to the medic, and to remove the super nailgun all together.

There are many reasons for this suggestion.

1. The SNG does 9 damage per nail at a fire rate of, about, 11.2 a second to everything. You can kill a soldier in 3 seconds or a heavy in 5 at medium range. A heavy might have the chance if he's already firing, but chances are, the medic will get the first shots in the majority of the time. Why? Because the medic knows when he is coming around that corner, not the HW. Even further, the hit prediction that was added in to 2.0 has made it so that medic that goes around the corner firing will hit the HW before he even knows what is going on. This is clearly demonstrated by the nails doing damage before they actually arrive at the target. If that isn't the case, then the player can not see an accurate stream of nails like his opponent can, again, making it simply broken and overpowering.

You can not buff the D and nerf the O and expect everything to work out. The O actually has a fighting chance atm and it should stay that way.

? Lol? My suggestion IS buffing the O. The spy AND the scout will get the power of the SNG against buildables. That's a CONSIDERABLE BUFF.

WRT the Sg / nail not hitting thing...have you looked at the hitboxes for the Sg? How do you know that your not hitting the Sg? Just b/c the model isn't getting hit doesn't mean the Sg isn't supposed to be getting hit! So stop saying the nails are wrong until you look at all aspects of the game.

... Satan, watch the video. Please, watch the video. The nails ARE NOT HITTING THE SG! The nails are PASSING BY THE GUN AND CONTINUING ON TO HIT A WALL! They simply ARE NOT hitting the gun, they are GRAZING IT and still causing full damage WHILE STILL BEING ABLE TO PASS BY IT AND DAMAGE THE THINGS BEHIND IT!

WATCH. THE. VIDEO!

Finally fatty...yes he is fucked we all know this, but I have played fatty in a scrim and meds and scouts still don't rape you like you demonstrated...YES they will get past you b/c the CoF and RoF on the AC are still fucked up a bit...but you aren't going to get owned. And your standing still which is stupid...I suggest you have that same medic conc around, land, and run at you trying to kill you. Do this and you will see how your scenario is flawed b/c he won't be able to aim right at you 100% of the time and you will b/c even if the CoF / RoF are fucked, once he gets in close he's a dead medic.

The heavy is useless and you know it. Any smart player will go the side the heavy is on 100% of the time, kill him with grenades and nails (he's a pretty much immobile target as his run speed while firing is something like 50) and then push that direction every time. The heavy is a crappy, yet semi-mobile, version of the SG without auto-lock on and a tight COF.

The introduction of overheating was absolutely lolzy. Then, instead of reverting back to TFC like what should have happened, the ROF and COF was effected by how hot the gun was. Yeah, this would be fine if, I dunno, the heavy was useful at short to medium range (like he's always been)... but he ISN'T!

Again, watch the videos. Examine it. Look at my health during the last bit. Then, LOOK AT WHERE MY BULLETS ARE GOING IN RELATION TO HIS BODY SIZE AT MEDIUM RANGE! I CAN'T increase the clip anymore as I WOULD BE MISSING THE MAJORITY OF MY SHOTS!

The biggest thing would be to LOOK AT MY FREAKING HEALTH!

If I have to make a video of me circle strafing and HW as a medic and killing him, I will. Anyone who has ever played against a heavy as a medic in a pickup will tell you that the heavy is absolutely redundant and laughable.

You should have the choice between an engineer or a heavy. Currently, this choice doesn't exist. The reason? The SNG. The SNG shines against immobile targets. Both the heavy and SG are, essentially, immobile targets.

Man I love your damage thread as it's invaluable information, but this thread is worthless...none of that works in game and it's the gameplay we need to address to ensure the game lives on.

The gameplay is ruined because the SG is too powerful, the heavy is too weak, and the medic is required 99% of the time to get the flag on maps where scouts used to shine just fine.

The gameplay is redundant, broken and boring because the HW is weak, the SG is too strong against scouts, and the medic is more than just a jack of all trades. Pickups consist of the same strategies against the same classes 100% of the time. There is no variation based on who is good at what.

You will run a demo, soldier, and engineer on monkey. You will run two sollies and an engy on SD2. You will run an engy and two soldiers (or a soldier and a demo) on startec. You will run a soldier, demo, and engy on aardvark. You will run a soldier, demo, and engy on well. You will run a soldier, demo, and engy on congestus. You will run a soldier, demo (or 2 soldiers), and an engy on 2fort.

You also don't need to be incredible to do decent with these setups. Nobody good at engy? It doesn't matter, have the player that is the worst defensive player play him. Nobody good at demo? Not a problem, have the player that is the worst on D play engy, the second worst at demo, and the best at soldier (this isn't to say that the demo doesn't take a lot of skill... it's to say that the SG is incredibly powerful on the majority of maps and that the demo doesn't need to have incredible timing since the SG will ALWAYS be in the FR over looking the flag).

It all falls back on the SG. It's too strong. Other threads address this. However, that's not the only problem. The SNG is stronger than it should be, at least against players. SG's die in 3 seconds. That's fine. That's easy to do, especially as it's not going to be one person trying to take out an SG. The problem lies when it takes the exact same amount of time to kill a soldier, or, a medic can easily take out an HW.

1. Make the SNG worse against players. Lower the damage it does to players to what the NG does to players.

2. Remove the nail gun. Give the spy and scout the super nail gun.

3. Make the HW how he was in TFC. Gimmicks are gimmicks and the 2.0 AC is simply gimmicky. It doesn't bring anything to the table and is more trouble than it is worth.

4. Make there be a choice between the SG and HW depending on the map. This would mean making the SG not have infinite range once locked. Other threads address this.

My suggestions do the following:

1. Nerf the SNG against players, and players only.

2. Boost the scout and spy, actually making them viable choices for offense on a regular basis. The scout now has the ability to not be an absolute waste and the spy can now do better at his primary role, SG removal.

3. Make the SG and HW have different, yet similar, roles that, depending on the map and player pool, give variety to, and fix, the gameplay.

My suggestions are fine, that is, as long as you actually read them .