Do we need overpressure?

[Fruitcake]

I played a lot of pickups the past year, and as most of you know I played most of them as heavy weapons guy. I am not out to clobber the class, but I think over-pressure, OP, gives HWG an advantage he doesn't need.

If you look at pickup statistics, http://parser.ffpickup.com/v2/record/most_kills_defense ,4/5 top kill records on defense are HWG. HWG is by no means weak class. The class has the most direct and easy form of dps, point and shoot. Top HWG's are top because they mow scouts down every run, not because they consistently OP. OP is superfluous to being a good HWG. OP allows a HWG to be less strict with his positioning at choke points, and get away with sloppy play. I believe the design of OP was to help stop the flow of offense in a meta when the game was much higher cap than it is now. With the changes to bhop speed and cap, as well as jump pad automated runs, I don't think is necessary anymore.

Another reason to remove OP is because of the damage it does to spys. OP is at a cooldown such that it can't stop scouts every run, or even medics on some maps, but it can always catch a spy. I know some people aren't a fan of spy and are happy he isn't in the meta, but he is unfairly castrated by this.
1. The HWG can counter spy every single run with OP.
2. OP creates a gap between the HWG and the spy at no cost to the HWG. A soldier shooting his feet with a rocket takes damage, a HWG does not.
3. HWG is already the best spy detection, if the spy is invisible, the HWG loses nothing by sweeping the area with his gun.
4. The most effective gap closer the spy has to close the gap with HWG is a frag jump, which is currently double countered between OP and HWG's damage output.

None of this even touches on the fact that the physics for OP can be buggy, sometimes launching people away at huge speed or pulling them backwards.

TL;DR
Over-pressure is from a past meta, it's unnecessary.
It allows sloppy play.
It unfairly nerfs spy.
It's buggy.

[Fat-Suzy]

completely disagree. dont nerf heavy!
overpressure is fun; if you take all the fun out of the game to balance it better with pickup style play it will be less attractive to newcomers and i think we are already struggling enough in that respect.

I do agree with you on some things tho... op is probably too much of an advantage in pickups.
I think it should be implemented as a serverside option so it can be disabled for competition.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

Another reason to remove OP is because of the damage it does to spys.

Rofl.

I know some people aren't a fan of spy and are happy he isn't in the meta

You are exactly right there, I think spy is a bullshit broken class, heavily leaning a crutch made up of gimmicks. Being able to walk up to and toss grenades at a sentry, one hit kills, etc. Regardless of how hard any of it is to pull off, it's still a bullshit gimick. It also completely flies in the face of what I actually play FF for, the fast paced acrobatic nature of it all.

With the changes to bhop speed and cap, as well as jump pad automated runs, I don't think is necessary anymore.

This is kind of a good point. OP cool down used to be so low, I spent an entire pickup getting OP'd by trailer every run. I smashed my keyboard against my desk till the little legs broke off and it had to stay flat on my desk from then on. After that OP cool down nerf, cap rate picked up significantly, and defense seemed to constantly be a chaotic unmanageable mess. (rocket blast radius was also nerfed at the same time, but I don't tend to think that's as consequential)

But I see a few things wrong with your point. Currently the cap rate is pretty comfortable. But that's not just because of the O nerfs, OP is still playing a part in that. There are plenty of runs where an OP keeps me out of the flag room on a good conc that'd have me right on top of the gun.

Also I'm not entirely comfortable with all the O changes. The jpad nerf is bittersweet to me, I think it should be removed entirely. The silly and asinine uses found for it in the current meta kind of grind my gears. But I'm still pretty iffy about the bhop changes.

Another thing to consider is that either a few individuals are cheating at the class or it is very broken. There is some nonsensical factor that changes the AC from just doing damage to becoming a power house of stopping potential. Even if that just comes down to great aim (I'm not entirely convinced it is about aim, even some of the best aimers in the community can be pretty hit or miss with the stopping power) even if it is about aim we need to consider if that's how the class was meant to/should work. I don't believe it was "meant" to work that way.

overpressure is fun

See above where I broke my keyboard. OP may be fun for the user, but it is more frustrating on the receiving end than any other stopping mechanic is.

I think it should be implemented as a serverside option so it can be disabled for competition.

Interesting thought. I have pitched for a "sv_competitive" setting before. With such an svar we could do things like entirely remove jpads from pugs and comp matches. At the same time we could revert the jpad nerf for pubs, seeing as how jpads undeniably add to the ease of access and fun factor for new players in pubs. Games where people are playing heavier O classes (those happy, naive, fools). There are probly plenty of small variables that could go towards a better quality of life for both halves of the community.

[Fruitcake]

I would agree with you FDA that as fun as it may be to overpressure someone, it is far more annoying to be overpressured. Also I am tentatively against splitting pub and competitive play. I believe TALOS or O-T used to use different secondary grenades, keeping the nail grenade for soldier, spy gas and HWG mirv. It was very confusing for new players going from server to server and seeing different "settings". Even if we made these settings specifically for pickup servers, that just raises another barrier to entry for pickups.

As to your comment about overpressures being a useful tool for stopping otherwise successful concs, I feel that overpressure sometimes creates impassable choke points, where there is no possibility for counter-play. Some chokes are so closed that the HWG can not miss overpressures. A soldier playing those chokes would quickly kill himself on rocket splash.

My only regret in taking away overpressure would be removing the HWG's one flashy play. The only thing flashy a HWG can do is overpressure someone. Nice grenades, good tracking, good positioning will not get you in an AVI.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

It was very confusing for new players going from server to server and seeing different "settings".

My general thinking is that anyone going into pugs and willing to accept the class restrictions and other form of structure would be able to at least learn and understand any other variances. Even still we get people like mohawk moe and alextric who want to come in and play offensive HW.

But yeah, reducing the confusion would kind of hinge on the svar being only used in pug servers. People can go into "pseudo comp" pubs and be informed of the differences. But that doesn't really help when people join into multiple empty servers that are different, which is a very likely possibility and, I agree, confusing experience.

where there is no possibility for counter-play.

And that is ultimately why I find OP so frustrating on the receiving end. Getting popped up by explosives there are still times where you have a chance to react, air strafe or what ever. Explosive based stops are also much more fluid than the abrupt OP. OP is just infinitely less interactive than other forms of stopping power in the game.

[squeek.]

where there is no possibility for counter-play.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

And that is ultimately why I find OP so frustrating on the receiving end. Getting popped up by explosives there are still times where you have a chance to react, air strafe or what ever. Explosive based stops are also much more fluid than the abrupt OP. OP is just infinitely less interactive than other forms of stopping power in the game.

In the beta, we actually implemented OP and the never-quite-completed scout movement weapon at around the same time, which served as a decent complement. Scouts could potentially counteract being hit with an OP by using their movement weapon right afterwards.

I don't really have a point with this, just thought it could add some context--almost all beta testing with the OP was done with the jump gun as a semi-counter. We also intended to release them at the same time, but that never happened.

whatever devs are still involved

This is the main sticking point for any change, though. I'm not sure there are any.

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by squeek.

This is the main sticking point for any change, though. I'm not sure there are any.

Damn, somebody page TrepidJon real quick. #TrepidBlessed

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

that just raises another barrier to entry for pickups.

Lets be real, the biggest barrier to getting into pickups is suffering through the toxic shitbird pickup community more than any gameplay issue.

Anyway, you both bring up good points and whatever devs are still involved should definitely consider this discussion for future updates.

[traxamillion]

Originally Posted by homie in reboks'

Lets be real, the biggest barrier to getting into pickups is suffering through the toxic shitbird pickup community more than any gameplay issue.

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by traxamillion

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

Agreed

[XPelargos]

Originally Posted by traxamillion

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

Hey, I've cut down on my weed smoking significantly!

WOuld really like to see the scout zoom gun and spy grapple hook implemented. As FDA said, I play FF for the acrobatic movement aspect, and giving classes more options to be acrobatic is a good thing.

[Drakonal]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

Rofl.



You are exactly right there, I think spy is a bullshit broken class, heavily leaning a crutch made up of gimmicks. Being able to walk up to and toss grenades at a sentry, one hit kills, etc. Regardless of how hard any of it is to pull off, it's still a bullshit gimick. It also completely flies in the face of what I actually play FF for, the fast paced acrobatic nature of it all.

Lol if i woulda known you felt this way about Spy i woulda never wasted time cliping demos for you. sheesh.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Drakonal

Lol if i woulda known you felt this way about Spy i woulda never wasted time cliping demos for you. sheesh.

Hey it doesn't mean the spy can't perform objectively cool looking acts. That's what I make avis for. I just want to show cool shit happening. Don't fret over your submitted spy clips just yet.

Still everything I said oozes of truth and wisdom, my opinions of spy are wrought of gold and sit on an ivory tower of well respected opinions.

[oaties]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I have pitched for a "sv_competitive" setting before. With such an svar we could do things like entirely remove jpads from pugs and comp matches. At the same time we could revert the jpad nerf for pubs, seeing as how jpads undeniably add to the ease of access and fun factor for new players in pubs.

I just want to add my opinion on competitive modes and settings for games - if you notice, the mark of what makes a competitive game popular as an esport is that public level gameplay and competitive gameplay are fairly similar - this allows for new players who are learning to bridge the gap between casual and competitive.

Look at league of legends - playing the game in normals, casually, is at its core the same as high level gameplay.. Same with games like Dota, CSGO (to an extent), and such.

Just as an example, look at TF2. It's just starting to get more competitive, but TF2 has always had a very difficult time become "established", because the competitive meta completely clashed with Valves design for the game (pretty sure valve still doesn't really "support" 6s).

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by oaties

I just want to add my opinion on competitive modes and settings for games - if you notice, the mark of what makes a competitive game popular as an esport is that public level gameplay and competitive gameplay are fairly similar - this allows for new players who are learning to bridge the gap between casual and competitive.

Look at league of legends - playing the game in normals, casually, is at its core the same as high level gameplay.. Same with games like Dota, CSGO (to an extent), and such.

Just as an example, look at TF2. It's just starting to get more competitive, but TF2 has always had a very difficult time become "established", because the competitive meta completely clashed with Valves design for the game (pretty sure valve still doesn't really "support" 6s).

Except FF is never going to garner a large following, we can provide both sides of the community with a better quality of life, and just like tf2 we already have our own little rules and restrictions that alienate more casual players.

TF2 is not "just starting" to be competitive. Like what? TF2 may not have ever been the biggest game, but it has had a pretty solid run of leagues over the years. If anything I'd imagine it's starting to fizzle out.

Would it be possible to remove the vertical aspect of jump gun? As in make it purely a boost horizontally?

That's disgusting and removes the entire purpose of the gun in the first place. Now you've made it entirely into a bhop crutch, super gross.

[caesium]

I have very little idea what I'm on about, but personally I never liked overpressure. I didn't find it helped me in any fundamental way at all (i.e. it didn't change how I'd play, probably because it's so occasional compared to the pace of the game), but just gave a handful of extra cheap feeling kills (even if those extra kills could sometimes be crucial like a flag carrier).

For me a key differences between the two DM defenders (soldier/HW) is stopping power. By giving the HW genuine stopping power (even if only occasionally) it muddies the waters. For example, before overpressure I liked that if you attack a route defended by an HW and do a great conc then you will essentially always get past (albeit damaged) whereas the same is not true of a soldier. It made the choices of where to attack, as well as defensive strategies, cleaner and better defined.

That said, if overpressure actually helps lesser HWs play to a workable level then maybe it's worth the extra complexity.

On that subject, I've always thought people judge HW's far too much on kills. More so than any other class it's often a very fine line whether or not the HW gets the kill assigned to him (even if his positioning/damage primarily facilitated the kill), plus when actually playing a match to win I'd intentionally go for far fewer kills than when just playing a pickup for "fun". Assists might help with that, but my main point is that maybe it's an issue of perception in that people think they/others are not good enough at HW for pickups just because they don't get high scores, whereas in reality they may be far from the weakest link in their team and possibly more effective than other HWs who rack up higher scores.

[XPelargos]

I liked HW's slow grenade as a concept because it doesn't interrupt your trajectory, just imposes a speed limit on the scout/medic car.

Whereas the overpressure causes a 3-car pileup on the 405 type deal.

Yet with only 1 slow nade and it lasting 5 seconds it never felt like I could be a traffic cop long enough.

What about removing overpressure and moving the slow nade effect to right click? i.e. every 20 seconds HW can right click and causes people in a small radius around him to slow down for 1/2 seconds? (Particle effects would have to accompany to show that it's active.)

This would still require him to maneuver to where the scouts are coming (my skill cap!) but not be so annoying with the farting and trajectory interruption stuff.