Q&A 3 - P.R., the Spy, and other wonderful things

[Circuitous]

Sigh.

I counter your stupid wall of text with an unordered list.

• If a Spy is able to cloak by you because you can't spot him, he wins.
• If a Spy can't cloak by you because you can spot him, you win.
• If a Spy runs by an SG cloaked, but undisguised, he still gets his ass handed to him.
• If a Spy runs by an SG cloaked, and disguised, but is too close, he still gets his ass handed to him.
• A Spy no longer has to get destroyed because he didn't uncloak soon enough, or mistakenly cloaked in view of an SG.
• A Spy no longer has to hope and pray no one manages to spot him if he cloaks and holds still for a moment.
• The entire point of cloaking is to not be seen.
• Cloaking is not the be-all end-all of the Spy's repertoire.

[Firefox11]

So in the end SGs can detect cloaked Spies if they get too close?

Thanks for pointing that Circ.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

You're acting like being able to sit in one place for a while without being seen immediately is like us coming down from on high and saying the Spy must be the most powerful class ever conceived.

No, but heaven forbid the spy WAIT to move until NO ONE IS LOOKING. If he moves when no one is looking, then stands still when people turn around again AND sg's can't detect him, then guess what? He is effectively COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. Now you can give the argument about catching a stray bullet or conc, but there are many games, smaller ones especially where things get pretty quiet in-base where there's really not that much going on to expose him.

Originally Posted by Hammock

I've got nothing against the spy being completely invisible while standing still, infact I like that idea, there just needs to be a counter for detecting a cloaked spy in the first place.

This sums it up for me. I object much more to sg's not being able to detect cloaked spies than him being completely invisible while standing still.

Originally Posted by Hammock

Radar was quickly removed, knocking it down to 1, now SG's won't be able to either? Making 0 game impliments to detecting a cloaked spy.

No, don't worry, we can still toss concs and napalm and rockets all around the entire frigging base and HOPE a spy is there.

Originally Posted by Circuitous

If a Spy runs by an SG cloaked, and disguised, but is too close, he still gets his ass handed to him.

Actually mentioning this in the changes would have saved a hell of a lot of discussion. The only thing that was said prior to this is someone thought it would be a good idea to have sg's still detect them.

[Rutabeggar]

CAN WE ALL PLEASE STFU AND LET THEM FINISH THE FUCKING PATCH SO WE AREN'T SITTING HERE UNTIL NOVEMBER ASKING WHENWILL2.1OUT

/caps

That is all.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

CAN WE ALL PLEASE STFU AND LET THEM FINISH THE FUCKING PATCH SO WE AREN'T SITTING HERE UNTIL NOVEMBER ASKING WHENWILL2.1OUT

/caps

That is all.

Dont hit me daddy!
Mommy!
*cowers*

[eternity94]

Originally Posted by reaper18

Dont hit me daddy!
Mommy!
*cowers*

The person you should be afraid of is...





ME, WAYNE BRADY


Mwhahahahaha

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Actually mentioning this in the changes would have saved a hell of a lot of discussion. The only thing that was said prior to this is someone thought it would be a good idea to have sg's still detect them.

No.. because it's been stated OVER AND OVER again in this thread! Somehow, you missed it.

Jesus Christ on a bicycle, some of you are dense as a wall of granite!

Instead of making a 300 line post outlining why you think something is wrong(and expecting people to read that whole diatribe).... learn to do some reading yourself. No one ever stated that the spy would be 100% invisible 100% of the time while cloaked. Where did that notion even come from!?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Iggy

No.. because it's been stated OVER AND OVER again in this thread! Somehow, you missed it.

Well excuse me all to hell! Where in the thread does it say that being cloaked and disguised still makes you visible to sg's? Here's all I could find prior to Circuitous' comment:

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

When you are disguised as the enemy and cloaked, enemy Sentry Guns will not see you.

Originally Posted by trepid_jon

However, it could be good to let SGs see cloaked spies within a shorter distance (I'm thinking 1/4 or 1/3) than the regular distance. Just doesn't seem right when you're diguised, though. But for balance reasons, it may seem right.

Ihmhi's post flat out says THEY WILL NOT BE DETECTED when disguised and cloaked, and trepid jon's says it might be a good idea to have them detect them. Which repeated posts are you looking at?

[trepid_jon]

That's cause I added it recently (after this thread was made and after I said that stuff you quoted).

I thought about adding it a few weeks ago, but didn't cause we wanted to test out how 2.1 played with no cloak detection. It really played alright. Maybe not perfect though, so now we're testing out this shorter distance cloak detection stuff.

[Nezumi]

Originally Posted by hammock

...how easy they personally find it to spot cloaked players (skill based arguement)

At worst, this is hardware based. Being able to see isn't a skill you start to pick up when you start playing FF.

But holy crap overreaction Tsukasa. Or SpiderWaffle. Or whatever your name is. I still think the spy isn't quite usefull enough, even after getting shived multiple times by skanky.

I mean, that's just my opinion, and to make him any better without making one of his skills totally stupid would require a lot of strange reworking and recoding, but damn, we're testing. Testing. Just relax.

[color43]

I'm in favor of the changes to the spy...makes the game more interesting for spies and for D

Will the in-game hints be updated to let new people know about these changes?

[Skanky Butterpuss]

i love it. everyone in beta thinks its fine, but 2 loudmouthed whiny people type walls and walls of text about how its not fair and wah wah wah, and it gets changed for them... yet they STILL have the audacity to bitch and fucking moan, even after it gets changed in their favor.

gotta love this community

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

CAN WE ALL PLEASE STFU AND LET THEM FINISH THE FUCKING PATCH SO WE AREN'T SITTING HERE UNTIL NOVEMBER ASKING WHENWILL2.1OUT

/caps

That is all.

From one former whiney person to the others...read above quote, then comment on game play after playing the fucking game.

[randombewblova]

coming from TF2 spy, which is actually very underpowered, being nodraw cloak really isnt that great. if you bump into someone, you get revealed, and that happens alot.


oh, and not that it's that huge of a change. when standing still in either 9.0 or 7.0, you still cannot really see the spy at all.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

i love it. everyone in beta thinks its fine, but 2 loudmouthed whiny people type walls and walls of text about how its not fair and wah wah wah, and it gets changed for them... yet they STILL have the audacity to bitch and fucking moan, even after it gets changed in their favor.

Way to be mature about this Skanky. I've been trying to rationally address issues that I thought could break gameplay and make the game less fun. Also if you notice every comment I made on the issue was PRIOR to any announcement of changes being made. But fine, please stir shit up by making insults and derogatory comments towards me when I haven't made any and was ready to drop the issue. I also find it interesting something being "changed in our favor" means the same as "not breaking something that was already working".

And yes, everyone in beta is happy with it, but I was assuming everyone in beta also consisted of very competent FF players and not representative of a pub environment, nor were any specifics given whether the gameplay changes were tested on bots. But I'm sure all our concerns expressed is just us bitching because we can, right? I mean everyone in 2.0 beta was happy with AvD, didn't give any solid reasons why it was going to work out, and that turned out great, didn't it?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I mean everyone in 2.0 beta never played AvD

But, yeah, I agree with your concerns about the spy.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

youre right chilled, i did go a bit overboard with it, and i apologize for that (had a few beers last night, i get mean sometimes :X). but here is where im coming from. pre-release, the spy could sabotage SG while cloaked and disguised, and i proved that that was overpowered (it really really was). so the decision (made mostly by phish iirc) was to make it so the SG always saw cloaked spies, which i thought was pretty stupid. what is the point of a cloak if you can only use it when no one is around? since then (pre-release) i have been suggesting that the spy be unseen by SGs when cloaked and disguised, but in return not be able to sabotage while cloaked. the idea is that the SG should see through the cloak, as if its not even there. this way, if youre disguised, you get by, like normal, but if youre not, you get shot. you still cant just recklessly cloak around, because people can still see the cloak, but at least now you dont have to completely avoid one room because theres an SG there. most people agreed with me on this, yet it was never implemented. it finally got implemented, and in beta testing it, no one had a complaint about it (spies, engies, sollies, betas, devs... no one). beta tests on anticitizen proved that even the current spy doesnt tip the scales in favor of offense, as most of my time was spent attempting to get up to an SG to sabotage it, but being killed in the process by attentive engineers. it wasnt overpowered in the least, but was a lot more fun than getting owned by the SG because it saw me cloaked. but 2 people who havent even tested it out at all have concerns about it, and while betas and devs were in agreement that it was good, its now being changed. because of people that havent played it. its really frustrating.

[chilledsanity]

Skanky: Yeah I hear you, and honestly I was never trying to say "change this, it's broken, and it will never work", I was only explaining my concerns and asking why this wasn't going to be a problem for a pub environment. I even said once or twice I did NOT see this as an unbalancing change for league games or ones where every player is competent (like a beta testing environment). I know in aardvark alone I've gotten a triple sabotage in pub play before just by acting like a friendly engineer. I was doing stuff that would never fly in a more serious game, but against rookies (which as I understand it, is who 2.1 is trying to attract) the changes sounded devastating. Since the only answers I got were the along the lines of "get better" or "spies can still take random hits" it wasn't the most reassuring.

I realize I haven't played it, that's why I was hoping someone could explain why my fears for pub play and bots were unfounded, but I didn't hear any solid answers along those lines. Also while Hammock and I were the most vocal on this, we weren't the only ones with concerns about it. Please don't be upset over my raising this issue. If the changes were rock-solid tested and balanced, I'm sure the devs could explain why my concerns were unfounded and wouldn't feel any need to make further changes. I highly doubt the devs are changing this because two people are skeptical. I think what's more likely is we brought up points they may not have considered and they're adjusting it accordingly. And for the record, I LIKE new abilities, I was just concerned about balance getting skewed like AvD was in 2.0.

By the way, how do you feel about this idea? Cloaked spies can still be detected by sentries (at a similar range), but their accuracy becomes HORRENDOUS. Also if the spy stands still, the sg loses them entirely. That way people can realize when a spy is in their base, but a good spy can still evade sg fire entirely. Chasing a ghost is more fun when you're sure one is around somewhere.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I mean everyone in 2.0 beta never played AvD

Well according to the late Dr. Satan "Yes, every time we have tested we have played dustbowl". It's only after 2.0 came out that I started seeing posts about how AvD wasn't really tested

[trepid_jon]

There were concerns from devs and betas alike, but not complaints. Personally, I think the distance could be even less than one quarter range like it is right now. What we need to do is test certain distances on certain maps. Like sd2...a sentry above the flag probably shouldn't see a cloaked spy until he gets on the ramps, you know? Need to do tests like that.

I'd go so far as to even say cloaking should trump disguise even. So if you're aren't disguised as an enemy, your cloak will let you get closer to a sentry. But with it being so easy to uncloak, it's risky not to disguise yourself. That makes more sense to me, actually.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

"Yes, every time we have tested we have played dustbowl". It's only after 2.0 came out that I started seeing posts about how AvD wasn't really tested

I got into the beta late, but in 2.0 the testing was really more like "this got added, make sure it works". People would join the server, check if something wasn't buggy, and then leave and report the findings. Gameplay testing was almost non-existent. The only "playtest" that I saw pre-2.0 was about 14 people in a server fooling around with jump pads on palermo.

The exact opposite has been the case for 2.1. We have been playing 20 minute rounds on about 8-10 maps every Sunday and Monday, testing general gameplay and balance on all different types of maps and gametypes.