4v4 league? Any interest? - Page 5

tml · 10-06-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

It's no different than the Olympics or golf.

yea it is

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

One side/person will always have a natural advantage if everyone does not go at the same time (like any running sport, as an example). It's just how the human brain works.

In running or golf they know what they have to beat and they are not up against any defence. i can see how it would be beneficial to go last here because the last guy was the only guy in the competition to know what he must beat. It's different in FF because you're facing the defence and everyone in the server knows what has to be done to win

SmellyCat · 10-06-2008, 09:12 PM

Indeed, if it's the last cap that the defence need to stop there's a good chance they'll follow it out into the Yard and camp it as long as absolutely possible to try to run the time down and hope they can do this without a rebound. Although I guess that's immaterial at that point...

It's actually quite difficult to do something 'extra' as offence on top of normal, surely you'd be trying as hard as you can to get caps out anyway?

Credge · 10-06-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyCat

Indeed, if it's the last cap that the defence need to stop there's a good chance they'll follow it out into the Yard and camp it as long as absolutely possible to try to run the time down and hope they can do this without a rebound. Although I guess that's immaterial at that point...

It's actually quite difficult to do something 'extra' as offence on top of normal, surely you'd be trying as hard as you can to get caps out anyway?

This is it.

Hammock · 10-06-2008, 10:26 PM

It's also nice to have a half time break to talk and discuss strategies. What worked and what didn't.

In a 5v5 during the 10 minute break what is everyone doing? I'd say the majority of the time people are discussing, and deciding next round's actions, either to stay with the same strat, or change it up. Also changing their rosters if they have others that want to play.

If you played 2x30 minute rounds, you won't get as many roster changes, since people will want to stick with their best players. But 4x15 minute rounds would let people change their rosters up for both O and D.

Plus you get the chance to talk and discuss your strat and make changes if nescessary.

I can't think of a single game that doesn't dicuss strategies collectively midway during their break.

2x30 minute rounds there'd be no point, "Okay guys we're done on O, now on to D.

Gator- · 10-06-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammock

4x15 minute rounds

-.-

Credge · 10-06-2008, 11:39 PM

So here's another question to ask:

How does everyone feel with subbing players out for O and D? In other words, would people prefer it if players had to play both O and D or would it be preferred if you could have a different set of O and D players? How about the requirement to change players out? What about a minimum and maximum number of subs?

ryu^ · 10-07-2008, 12:56 AM

personally i think you should only be allowed to choose 4 players for the game to play off and def period. no reshuffling to have 4 best offy and then your 4 best def, but thats just my opinion while its a 4vs4 format. obviously these rules are open to interpretation as people might have to go early/disconnection/hardware failure etc, so it might be a little hard to regulate. (maybe a 1 man substitution allowance)

on a side note, there might be clans who will or can field two seperate teams, i think these should be made to state the players in each and not have the option to chop and change for different situations.

also i think there should be some map discussion regarding which and how many maps are going to be used. im open to learning new maps but as long as they arnt a bag of shite. 2fort/monkey/shutdown2/openfire/bases/roasted/siden/2mesa3 would be a good start

VinnytheBoss · 10-07-2008, 02:33 AM

listen, this 4v4 league we are doing...its going to have a max players of 7...minimum of 5...so yea...you better have atleast one person that can o and d..

more will be discussed soon..this site is in the making and shall be done very very soon!!

we will gather up code of conducts and rules very soon as well.

Skanky Butterpuss · 10-07-2008, 04:47 AM

credge, i just want to break this down for you to so you can understand why ive been laughing for the past couple minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyCat

if it's the last cap that the defence need to stop there's a good chance they'll follow it out into the Yard and camp it

so, if the defense knows they only need to stop one or two more caps, they can change their strategy accordingly. this gives them the advantage as

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyCat

It's actually quite difficult to do something 'extra' as offence on top of normal

meaning that even though they know they only need one more cap, there isnt much more they can do about it that they wouldnt have done before when they were trying to pull out as many caps as possible

so if anyone has the advantage of going second, it would be the defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

This is it.

directly contradicts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

Cons: Team that plays offense second has an advantage

did you have a change of heart?

caesium · 10-07-2008, 09:26 AM

i just had an idea for making CTF ovd a lot more interesting... i haven't thought it through that much tbh, it just came to me so figured i'd post it up here.

it's inspired by the domination/hq modes from other games, could all be done by modifying the lua file of any CTF map, and although it's aimed at standard ovd numbers it would probably work with just about any number of players. here's how it works:

- match starts just as a normal full CTF match would (both teams can attack and defend).
- whenever a team caps: that team becomes the defenders and the other team becomes the attackers; the new attacking team's flag is completely disabled/removed, and the new defending team's flag reappears in it's normal starting place.
- there are no team points for capping (well you could have some if you want, it makes little difference really).
- teams are rewarded x points per second that they are the defenders.

btw i was originally thinking you'd need a setup time after each cap, but then i realised it's far more interesting without that because, assuming the other team isn't about to cap also, you can delay capping while your team gets setup on defence if you think it's worth it (at the cost of giving the other team more points ofc!).

sounds more complex than i think it would be, and i recon it'd be great fun

**squeek.** · 10-07-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caesium

sounds more complex than i think it would be, and i recon it'd be great fun

I don't know about all that, but YOU just gave ME an idea using lua. Could have a __ffpl__ lua suffix that plays all 4 rounds (?) without a map reset (with a break in the middle even). Maybe it wouldn't be so good though. Maybe two fifteen minute rounds per 1 lua file, so the round scores are kept separate.

Agent Buckshot Moose · 10-07-2008, 01:19 PM

TOTALLY AWESOME IDEA LOL!: Let's see some more maps aside from the CTF maps that get played every other game. Vertigo, Genesis, and other similar maps are designed for smaller amounts of players and would change things up a bit.

My guess is the rotation will be something like openfire/shutdown2/openfire/blis_2fort/openfire/shutdown2 but hopefully we can have variety aside from CTF. Move the new league in the direction of the new game people.

tim_ · 10-07-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

I also agree with the AVI stuffs. We need a POTW to go with this league.

/me Raises Hand to volunteer, I would be happy to do it if people sumited plays

Credge · 10-07-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

credge, i just want to break this down for you to so you can understand why ive been laughing for the past couple minutes.

so, if the defense knows they only need to stop one or two more caps, they can change their strategy accordingly. this gives them the advantage as

meaning that even though they know they only need one more cap, there isnt much more they can do about it that they wouldnt have done before when they were trying to pull out as many caps as possible

so if anyone has the advantage of going second, it would be the defense.

directly contradicts

did you have a change of heart?

No, it goes hand in hand with what I said, and have always said. If I mistyped something, which I clearly did, that's a different subject.

I've always said that one side has an advantage over another if both sides do not do the same tasks at the exact same moment. Offense going second is an advantage as they have a goal they must beat. The team that goes first does not have this knowledge.

The only time the defense has an advantage, as he stated, is when time is about to run out and the offense only has one cap left to get in order to tie/win. A defense will adjust accordingly, making larger risks than they normally would, etc.

However, this does not change the fact that an offense that goes second has a larger advantage due to them knowing exactly what they have to beat while a team team that goes first is just playing for points.

But since we're in to reading things:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

There is an advantage, just like there is an advantage to being on the red team in CTF. 4v eliminates one set of problems but brings in another. One side/person will always have a natural advantage if everyone does not go at the same time (like any running sport, as an example). It's just how the human brain works. If robots were playing, there wouldn't be any advantage.

I'm really finding it hard that you can quote part of that asking a question (and saying uhh... what?) and completely ignore the rest.

And no, just because one team has an advantage at one point in a competition while another team has an advantage in another does not mean it 'evens out'.

Skanky Butterpuss · 10-07-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

I'm really finding it hard that you can quote part of that asking a question (and saying uhh... what?) and completely ignore the rest.

i had honestly never heard of the 'red advantage" thing, so i was asking about it because it sounded like some bunch of shit that you just made up. after reading about it, i still think its some bunch of shit, but i know you didnt make it up

as far as ignoring most of what you posted: when it comes to some kind of debate i generally ignore most of what you post since i dont believe i have ever seen you admit to being wrong, even if you are proven wrong by several people and the FF dev wiki (as was the case with the pyro flame jumping). kinda pointless to point out where someone is wrong if he/she just continues to argue anyway, isnt it? this was a rare occasion that i spotted some hilarious contradiction and simply couldnt resist

anywho, 4v4 league sounds pretty cool. good luck with it, squinny!

tml · 10-08-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

i had honestly never heard of the 'red advantage" thing, so i was asking about it because it sounded like some bunch of shit that you just made up.

see this is why the red wings dominate the NHL! DAMMIT LEAFS! change your jerseys to red

Skanky Butterpuss · 10-09-2008, 02:46 AM

WORD! i wont be surprised if they pull another back to back cup. stanley loves d-town!

SmellyCat · 10-09-2008, 12:51 PM

Please Credge, explain to me how one does something 'extra' as an offence player to help reach a goal? Should you, or should you not be attempting to play at 100% anyway?

tml · 10-09-2008, 06:53 PM

lol i would rather D second tbh

Sebhael · 10-09-2008, 08:08 PM

Awesome, I'm in on this.

I don't really care what the rule set is, I just don't even have a solid 5 for UGC, and of course I don't have 7 for the TFL.

This 4v4 sounds perfect to suit the small size of my clan

Question though, since Vinny is a on the board of starting/maintaining this league; does that allow for the Fellas to play as well?

10-06-2008, 11:39 PM	#86
Credge FF Loremaster Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times	So here's another question to ask: How does everyone feel with subbing players out for O and D? In other words, would people prefer it if players had to play both O and D or would it be preferred if you could have a different set of O and D players? How about the requirement to change players out? What about a minimum and maximum number of subs? __________________ "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" Ronald Reagan

10-07-2008, 12:56 AM	#87
ryu^ Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	personally i think you should only be allowed to choose 4 players for the game to play off and def period. no reshuffling to have 4 best offy and then your 4 best def, but thats just my opinion while its a 4vs4 format. obviously these rules are open to interpretation as people might have to go early/disconnection/hardware failure etc, so it might be a little hard to regulate. (maybe a 1 man substitution allowance) on a side note, there might be clans who will or can field two seperate teams, i think these should be made to state the players in each and not have the option to chop and change for different situations. also i think there should be some map discussion regarding which and how many maps are going to be used. im open to learning new maps but as long as they arnt a bag of shite. 2fort/monkey/shutdown2/openfire/bases/roasted/siden/2mesa3 would be a good start __________________ Support FF:

10-09-2008, 02:46 AM	#97
Skanky Butterpuss Beware the Hammer D&A Member Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: Sabotaging your shit. Affiliations: :}\|, mimic, /KBN/ Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	WORD! i wont be surprised if they pull another back to back cup. stanley loves d-town! __________________ Support FF: Etzell: Skanky Etzell: The Wings are fucking fantastic Etzell: They really are Etzell: But even SAYING that makes me want to vomit

10-06-2008, 09:12 PM	#82
SmellyCat Darknight Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Indeed, if it's the last cap that the defence need to stop there's a good chance they'll follow it out into the Yard and camp it as long as absolutely possible to try to run the time down and hope they can do this without a rebound. Although I guess that's immaterial at that point... It's actually quite difficult to do something 'extra' as offence on top of normal, surely you'd be trying as hard as you can to get caps out anyway?

10-06-2008, 10:26 PM	#84
Hammock D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	It's also nice to have a half time break to talk and discuss strategies. What worked and what didn't. In a 5v5 during the 10 minute break what is everyone doing? I'd say the majority of the time people are discussing, and deciding next round's actions, either to stay with the same strat, or change it up. Also changing their rosters if they have others that want to play. If you played 2x30 minute rounds, you won't get as many roster changes, since people will want to stick with their best players. But 4x15 minute rounds would let people change their rosters up for both O and D. Plus you get the chance to talk and discuss your strat and make changes if nescessary. I can't think of a single game that doesn't dicuss strategies collectively midway during their break. 2x30 minute rounds there'd be no point, "Okay guys we're done on O, now on to D.

10-07-2008, 02:33 AM	#88
VinnytheBoss Boss 4 all da rite reasons Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: jersey Class/Position: O scout/med D sol/demo Gametype: CTF Affiliations: Founder of the Goodfellas. Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	listen, this 4v4 league we are doing...its going to have a max players of 7...minimum of 5...so yea...you better have atleast one person that can o and d.. more will be discussed soon..this site is in the making and shall be done very very soon!! we will gather up code of conducts and rules very soon as well.

10-07-2008, 09:26 AM	#90
caesium Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: europe Class/Position: anything Gametype: everything Affiliations: #teamfail Posts Rated Helpful 27 Times	i just had an idea for making CTF ovd a lot more interesting... i haven't thought it through that much tbh, it just came to me so figured i'd post it up here. it's inspired by the domination/hq modes from other games, could all be done by modifying the lua file of any CTF map, and although it's aimed at standard ovd numbers it would probably work with just about any number of players. here's how it works: - match starts just as a normal full CTF match would (both teams can attack and defend). - whenever a team caps: that team becomes the defenders and the other team becomes the attackers; the new attacking team's flag is completely disabled/removed, and the new defending team's flag reappears in it's normal starting place. - there are no team points for capping (well you could have some if you want, it makes little difference really). - teams are rewarded x points per second that they are the defenders. btw i was originally thinking you'd need a setup time after each cap, but then i realised it's far more interesting without that because, assuming the other team isn't about to cap also, you can delay capping while your team gets setup on defence if you think it's worth it (at the cost of giving the other team more points ofc!). sounds more complex than i think it would be, and i recon it'd be great fun

10-07-2008, 01:19 PM	#92
Agent Buckshot Moose Wiki Standards Team Wiki Team Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Geokill's closet Class/Position: Sniper/Demoman Gametype: CTF Affiliations: :e0: Co-leader Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	TOTALLY AWESOME IDEA LOL!: Let's see some more maps aside from the CTF maps that get played every other game. Vertigo, Genesis, and other similar maps are designed for smaller amounts of players and would change things up a bit. My guess is the rotation will be something like openfire/shutdown2/openfire/blis_2fort/openfire/shutdown2 but hopefully we can have variety aside from CTF. Move the new league in the direction of the new game people.

10-09-2008, 12:51 PM	#98
SmellyCat Darknight Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Please Credge, explain to me how one does something 'extra' as an offence player to help reach a goal? Should you, or should you not be attempting to play at 100% anyway?

10-09-2008, 06:53 PM	#99
tml make it rain Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: North Bay Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	lol i would rather D second tbh

10-09-2008, 08:08 PM	#100
Sebhael Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Princeton, IL Class/Position: Pyro \| O Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Awesome, I'm in on this. I don't really care what the rule set is, I just don't even have a solid 5 for UGC, and of course I don't have 7 for the TFL. This 4v4 sounds perfect to suit the small size of my clan Question though, since Vinny is a on the board of starting/maintaining this league; does that allow for the Fellas to play as well?

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