The "Bitch About Updates" Thread.

[tu!]

stop it!

[GeoKill----->]

^I am so quoting that next time someone bitches like that

[PsychoLogical]

cry me a river
then dont join clanstyleservers and ignore the rules

and pah who are u? tell me something about u...


and i fuckin like the word newbie

zE is a newbie...

elmos map ownz

this is my first post hi all others.


edit: zE is a newbie but a very good clanleader he loves his clan and i love that =AS= Power

[zE]

Originally Posted by PsychoLogical

zE is a newbie...

:O

[Rutabeggar]

Im not saying donate to pay for the entire salary of the dev team, donate to pay for an animator to get some of the essentials fixed up. I'm saying donate to buy spaces on gaming news web pages, and if it's free then why hasn't it been taken care of?

Why get off the dev teams nuts? It's not like it really makes a difference one way or another. No amount of suggesting or constructive conversation has really helped thus far.

Why can't the community that has stuck around thus far lend a helping hand to a dev team that is unavailable 8/12 months in a year? I understand University obligations, believe me, I'm studying for finals as we speak...but this community deserves a bit more than what we are getting, you guys expect us to stick around, but give us nothing to look forward to except "It's being worked on". We want, nay, we deserve some updates, we're the ones keeping this mod afloat.

[v3rtigo]

My view on things, feel free to disagree.

Originally Posted by Nuk3m

-Fortress Forever released September 13th 2007 (8 months since release)
-Since, there have been 2 patches supporting it.(within 5 months of release)
-A third is imminent, and will arrive in due time.

Ok, so two patches, but what has been changed/added content wise? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most part of the patches was the code that changed (balance, fixes, etc). What has been done is impressive, but what has the rest of the team been doing? As for the upcomming patch, just 2 new maps isn't going to cut it, obviously.

-Most dev members have obligations other things aside from Fortress Forever.
-Fortress Forever is free, the devs are not paid to fuel your gaming addiction.

We all understand that they have lives outside the mod, but if you really can't find the time, then it's time to pass the torch. If you know you'll be back then find a replacement or something but don't drop work altogether, not without letting the community know about it anyway.

-Things are happening with 2.1, you don't see it cause your not on the 'inside'

Which is rather rude towards the community. We at least expect an update once a month, even if it's just a summary of what you guys have been talking about. Just saying "yeah, we've been doing this and that" in a random thread doesn't cut it. The dev journals showing new stuff is nice too, even if it is unfinished. Basically, just seeing that you guys are actually doing something will ease our worries.

-Bitching aggravates devs, making them care less about your patch.
-Nobody in the community that complains seems to want to help.

The bitching comes from somewhere, and from my point of view, most of it is not unfounded. Also, if the devs care less about that patch, then they're killing their own mod. However, from what I'm seeing, it's the community that is commiting suicide by saying shit like this.

Updates will probably decrease the bitching if it adresses the problems at hand, or at least create decent discussions. There will always be trolls and dipshits, but once in a while, a decent thread actually will pop up. If you've been discussing it in the beta section, then let us know, and don't all of a sudden yell "this has been discussed a million times already", how the fuck are we supposed to know if you don't inform us?

Sure, you can say "why don't you help out if you're such a know-it-all", but we have not made a commitment to this mod. We are not making a mod ourselves exactly because we don't have the time or will to make one. The devs, on the other hand, have, or at least should have, made the decision of dedicating themselves to the work that needs to be done. In that sense, they have a responsibility towards the community. So saying that they are not obligated to listen is bs.

If the devs don't want to hear these views or ideas, then they should remove the suggestions forum and go their own way. Either is fine, as long as they make their intentions clear. The community should follow and stop pissing on itself if it wants to be of any help. Should the devs want to keep the suggestion forum open, then they should start releasing more info, because we cannot help if we don't know what's going on.

What you get then are threads on the same topic over and over (even more than usual). The devs need to make decisions, either have 1 thread discuss about something or announce whatever choice they have made and lock any thread that attempts to bitch about it. If they have that much of a problem with the decision, they can pm or hop on IRC.

[Bakez]

The problem is the same fundamental flaws (not all with the game) are still there after 8 months of release. The mod is shooting itself in the foot by making new players download about 54000 million different files before finding the right one that actually installs the correct version so the game can run. The mod still doesn't have some of the things that were ESSENTIAL for the game to take off. Still no decent amount of maps, still no 2fort, still the stupid placeholder instead of 2fort, still no training mode or tutorial to help new players into the game (a shitty external wiki or links to video tutorials on the inside the forum really doesn't cut it). These things were discussed for about 40 years before release as something that will be there and they still aren't. I STILL see people on other forums asking how to do 'the big jump' or 'how to teleport' and when 2.0 came out I saw posters asking how to download because the links didn't fucking work.

Then we have the actual date, and condition the mod was released in that still annoys me greatly. All this talk about giving a good first impression so users don't get scared and run away and still that was exactly what the mod managed to do while giving everyone an easy choice to stop playing and hop onto another game.

Now we have unquestionably seen major improvements to the actual game since then, but all what went on before, after and what is going on now leads me to believe that the mod team might have the talent and ability to make a great mod, but I seriously doubt that many of them have a clue what they are doing on the 'business' side of it

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

It doesn't matter if everyone in this community could chip in $500,000.

I... I um... I'd quit my job and work on FF full time for $500,000.

Scuzzy

[Nuk3m]

divide that by everyone in the dev team, and even those who arent. Those who are making 2fort and training, theyre not devs. etc.

[bokko]

step 1 doenaetions, step 2 ...., stepp 3 ff out

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Why... why in the hell do you keep suggesting donations?

It doesn't matter if everyone in this community could chip in $500,000. There's no reason for it to be used. Donations would not cover the potential income and missed schooling of all of the devs such that they could drop everything else and do nothing but work on FF, and getting ads on gaming sites doesn't cost so much that it would be necessary for an entire community to chip in - most of the best advertising we could get would, in fact, be free.

Official FF server.
Advertising/Marketing.
Merchandise(t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.)
File hosting server.

These are things money could go toward if donated. It's kind of pathetic actually that the devs won't take any money when some people will gladly give it to them. Do you all really NOT care THAT much about this mod? I really don't get it... No, money isn't the fix-all, but it certainly helps.

I can see how paying to get a decent animator hired would be a bad idea, simply because the rest of the devs who've been working on this mod for over 3 years are getting paid nothing, but money can be used other places...

[Dr.Satan]

I'm pretty sure accepting money from players violates some 3rd party agreement between Vavle and the makers of mods...If you really want to donate for advertising...why don't you just by a freeking slot somewhere? I personally don't think the mod is strong enough quite yet for advertising TBH, but why do you need the devs approval?

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Valve

C. Source SDK.

Your Subscription(s) may contain access to the Valve software development kit (the "SDK") for the computer game engine used in Half-Life 2 and other compatible Valve products (the "Source Engine"). You may use, reproduce and modify the SDK on a non-commercial basis solely to develop a modified game (a "Mod") for Half-Life 2 or other Valve products compatible with and using the Source Engine. You may reproduce and distribute the Mod in object code form, solely to licensed end users of Half-Life 2 or other compatible Valve products, provided that the Mod is made publicly available and distributed without charge on a non-commercial basis

If you would like to use the Source SDK or a Mod for a commercial purpose or activity, please contact Valve at sourceengine@valvesoftware.com.

You could also setup a separate site dedicated to donating to Circ's Constipation Relief fund and just use that cash to fund some FF stuff??

Loopholes are fantastic.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Bakez

The problem is the same fundamental flaws (not all with the game) are still there after 8 months of release. The mod is shooting itself in the foot by making new players download about 54000 million different files before finding the right one that actually installs the correct version so the game can run.

Not really sure what your talking about here...the wiki is the first and ONLY place people should go to DL the mod and it's very straight forward IMO.

Originally Posted by Bakez

The mod still doesn't have some of the things that were ESSENTIAL for the game to take off. Still no decent amount of maps,

Ummm...TFC comes with how many stock maps? like 8 or 10 or something? Also this mod has been out for 8 months and we currently have a TON of maps. And that's not even all b/c I haven't gotten around to the most recent 4 / 5 released or in beta.

Originally Posted by Bakez

still no 2fort, still the stupid placeholder instead of 2fort,

It's been said multiple times that 2fort is being worked on...there is even a thread with SS's in the PUBLIC mapping section right now.

Originally Posted by Bakez

still no training mode or tutorial to help new players into the game (a shitty external wiki or links to video tutorials on the inside the forum really doesn't cut it).

Um please name one Multi-player game you have ever played that actually had a training mode AND didn't have a SP mode as well...AND is made by a 3rd party and not an huge corporation like Valve. Yes I know they said it would come, but shit takes time...

Originally Posted by Bakez

These things were discussed for about 40 years before release as something that will be there and they still aren't. I STILL see people on other forums asking how to do 'the big jump' or 'how to teleport'

As you will in every game that has any depth from any new person that joins up...that's the nature of the beast and I'm not really sure how this is the devs fault.

Originally Posted by Bakez

and when 2.0 came out I saw posters asking how to download because the links didn't fucking work.

This was an issue with the installer being corrupt...would you have ratherd we left the links up for people to download corrupted content?

Originally Posted by Bakez

Then we have the actual date, and condition the mod was released in that still annoys me greatly. All this talk about giving a good first impression so users don't get scared and run away and still that was exactly what the mod managed to do while giving everyone an easy choice to stop playing and hop onto another game.

While I agree that the game wasn't released in a great condition and was probably released on the worst date possible, I think we are winning back players each day and the game is getting better.

[[AE] 82694]

I think we need to wait for 2fort or schtop and put together a kick ass video. Any advertising should have a kick ass video showing FF's main features. So there are things that need to be done first. As far as everything else fuck it do it. The little animations will come but defiantly shouldn't hold up any PR.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

I think we need to wait for 2fort or schtop and put together a kick ass video. Any advertising should have a kick ass video showing FF's main features. So there are things that need to be done first. As far as everything else fuck it do it. The little animations will come but defiantly shouldn't hold up any PR.

I totally agree.

[bokko]

Originally Posted by Vertigo

Boohooo

We will drown in your tears.

You don't realise how much of an effort they have put in to this mod, those small changes take hours and hours of hard work. Crying out for them to Work more, work faster! is not going to help at all.

Also, there is no-one to pass on the torch to, ridiculous statement.

[[AE] 82694]

I retired my torch and now I have time and money to play games.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

I think we need to wait for 2fort or schtop and put together a kick ass video. Any advertising should have a kick ass video showing FF's main features. So there are things that need to be done first. As far as everything else fuck it do it. The little animations will come but defiantly shouldn't hold up any PR.

Concur.

[v3rtigo]

A map like 2fort does not take 8+ months to make, not if the community is regularely spewing out maps and models. Also, I am well aware of the effort it takes to change the little things and those little things have changed, at least code-wise. Apart from the internals of the game changing, I don't recall seeing any new maps, models or anything whatsoever. From my viewpoint, it looks like a bunch of codemonkeys are doing all the work.