Suck my balls proposition 8

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Can anyone give a valid reason why gays shouldn't be allowed to be married?

No.

[Innoc]

Marriage is a Right? Really? A Right? If the Gov't is "granting" it...it's not a right. Gov't can only convey privileges.

[GenghisTron]

No, marriage is not a right, but equal protection under the law, aka, the 14th amendment, is.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

No, marriage is not a right, but equal protection under the law, aka, the 14th amendment, is.

Who's being protected and from who's attacking them?

[Bridget]

Sound the stupid alarm.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Who's being protected and from who's attacking them?

Marriage in this country is currently a legal institution. Marriage constitutes thousands of legal and civil benefits. Gays are not given these benefits, because by law, they are not allowed to marry. Therefore, they are not being treated equally under the Constitution and the 14th Amendment.

Also, if you really need to ask who's 'attacking them', well, I'm not sure what to say. The answer is pretty obvious. Closed-minded bigots who come up with paralogisms to defend the indefensible (preventing gays from marrying).

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Marriage in this country is currently a legal institution. Marriage constitutes thousands of legal and civil benefits. Gays are not given these benefits, because by law, they are not allowed to marry. Therefore, they are not being treated equally under the Constitution and the 14th Amendment.

Also, if you really need to ask who's 'attacking them', well, I'm not sure what to say. The answer is pretty obvious. Closed-minded bigots who come up with paralogisms to defend the indefensible (preventing gays from marrying).

I think you guys missed the point. Rights are self-evident and are not something granted by government. Government may protect a particular Right but it cannot grant a Right. Anything Government "allows" via licensing, regulation or control is not a right but a privilege.

"Right" is a loaded word with specific meaning.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Sound the stupid alarm.

You might want to consider moving towards reasonable and rational contributions to threads.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Innoc

I think you guys missed the point. Rights are self-evident and are not something granted by government. Government may protect a particular Right but it cannot grant a Right. Anything Government "allows" via licensing, regulation or control is not a right but a privilege.

"Right" is a loaded word with specific meaning.

You aren't getting it. No one is talking about 'rights', like the right to free speech. We're talking about equal protection under the law. That is one of the pillars of a republic with a good legal system. Fair and equal treatment under the law. I'm not talking about 'rights' (Your definition of what is a 'right' is also very sketchy), I'm talking about the law. Rights don't really have a place in this conversation, other than the expectation of equal treatment under the law.

You're the one who keeps bringing up 'rights', not me. This is the second or third time I've pointed out that this has nothing to do with rights, but instead, equal protection under the law. The plain, and simple fact is, the Government creates special privileges, using the law, and they deny those very privileges to homosexual couples. They are being unfairly treated. If you're a strict constructionist, you would see that outlawing gay marriage is a clear violation of the Constitution. If Government completely got rid of all special benefits involved with marriage, then gays would not be treated unequally under the law. However, since the Government is involved with saying who can and can't get married, and what benefits you can and can't get depending on your marriage status, it is a clear breach of the Constitution.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Who's being protected and from who's attacking them?

Better ask the guys who wrote this:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

[YomMamasHouse]

The government isn't granting rights; it is restoring those which were unfairly taken.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Innoc

I think you guys missed the point. Rights are self-evident and are not something granted by government. Government may protect a particular Right but it cannot grant a Right. Anything Government "allows" via licensing, regulation or control is not a right but a privilege.

"Right" is a loaded word with specific meaning.

So, Marriage is a privilege, and not a right....

You might want to consider moving towards reasonable and rational contributions to threads.

Good luck with that one.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Iggy

So, Marriage is a privilege, and not a right....


Good luck with that one.

Iggy, by it's legal definition anything the Gov't licenses and exercises any control over is a privilege.

Those of you continuing with the insults and immature posts can carry on ITT without me.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Those of you continuing with the insults and immature posts can carry on ITT without me.

Curious who these mystery posters are...?

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Iggy, by it's legal definition anything the Gov't licenses and exercises any control over is a privilege.

That's what I was asking about... but I still question if Marriage is a right, or a privilege. Perhapse that is what is at issue here. Long before this country was founded, marriage existed. It's not something that was created by this government. It's existed throughout recorded history. It is something based is religeon, and adapted by the legal system. Probably because they saw money to be made.

Those of you continuing with the insults and immature posts can carry on ITT without me.

At least you can put them on your "ignore" list.....

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Iggy, by it's legal definition anything the Gov't licenses and exercises any control over is a privilege.

Those of you continuing with the insults and immature posts can carry on ITT without me.

I guess I must be in the minority, but... what's the point of splitting hairs? If you don't think marriage is the government's business, I suggest campaigning to remove any benefit to being married. Tax breaks, adoption abilities, and so forth. If it's a veiled attempt to be against gay marriage without having to say it... may as well fess up.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Etzell

I guess I must be in the minority, but... what's the point of splitting hairs? If you don't think marriage is the government's business, I suggest campaigning to remove any benefit to being married. Tax breaks, adoption abilities, and so forth. If it's a veiled attempt to be against gay marriage without having to say it... may as well fess up.

Exactly. The current arguments employed by anti-guy advocates just seem to be stalling tactics to hide their true views. The easiest way to solve the debate, is to just get rid of all the legal benefits that come with being married, and make marriage a social/religious institution, rather than one that is enforced by law. That way, the only thing gays can complain about is not being invited to a special club called 'marriage', which in reality is a hell-hole that turns people into sour misanthropes.

Really, if there weren't a ton of legal privileges that come with getting married, I'd probably never do it. I see no reason why it's necessary for me to support some out-dated institution to profess my love and solidarity for my partner. I think it's far more virtuous to simply be faithful without spending money on a wedding, ring, and putting a special title next to my name.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Can anyone give a valid reason why gays shouldn't be allowed to be married? Personally, I think there is no difference between a "marriage" and a "civil union"..... as both should equate to the same exact rights. Basicly, it's a distinction without a difference. However, I don't care if they call it "civil union", "marriage", or "legal copulation".

Some would argue that a "marriage" is a legal commitment, others would argue it's a religeous one. Our society dictates that there is a separation between church(religeon) and state(legally speaking). If a couple who is athiest "marries" by legal means, why not a homosexual couple? The strengh of their love can't be considered any less than another couples, lest we drop over the precipice of mind control.

i doubt the founding fathers would agree to this, separation of church and state, (it was to prevent a national religion.)however being conservative and christian i have no problem with gays getting married, calling it a normal family eh a little disturbing but otherwise im good.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Iggy

That's what I was asking about... but I still question if Marriage is a right, or a privilege. Perhapse that is what is at issue here. Long before this country was founded, marriage existed. It's not something that was created by this government. It's existed throughout recorded history. It is something based is religeon, and adapted by the legal system. Probably because they saw money to be made.

I think it's relevant because it determines what interaction and restriction the Government places on the exercise of those rights or privileges. I agree with you that Marriage has long existed before our Government or pretty much any of the modern Governments ruling over people in the world today. So how to address this? Frankly I think the GFY method of forcing it via the Judicial branch is wrong. Frankly I think that if there is some compelling reason the Government must be involved then choose a new term for everyone and group it there and leave marriage to the venue of faith-related entities.

I mean this next comment sincerely and not as an insult. Those who don't get or dismiss the difference between Right and Privilege make me wonder if they truly understand the differences and why it's important.

Originally Posted by Iggy

At least you can put them on your "ignore" list.....

You're right. It's probably time to update that.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse

The government isn't granting rights; it is restoring those which were unfairly taken.

uh since when did you hear this, there busy taking away all our other rights, while we sit here and debate this bill.

[YomMamasHouse]

Which rights would those be? The ones Glenn Beck claims we are losing?



EDIT - As a side note, its "they're"