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Old 06-23-2010, 12:54 AM   #61
Innoc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professional View Post
I guess you haven't seen the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?" We were there and more. Hundreds of people had electric cars in California in the mid 90s through law, but the program was ultimately killed by a certain jealous industries.
Why would you assume that I haven't seen it? Is there some assumption that people who have seen it are monolithic in their views? Did you read all of my post from which you quoted? That film counters none of what I posted.

The EC1 was not a transportation panacea. It only addressed a small segment of the transportation market. You also have the fundamental law of physics relative to the amount of energy needed to move a mass. Contrast that issue against battery energy density and grossly inadequate power generation and distribution grids and you have a "solution" (the EC1) that was inadequate then and is grossly inadequate now.

As to solar and wind....have any of you actually researched and analyzed the natural resource commitment needed to implement commercial solar farms? Here's a suggestion
  1. Go research the annual power consumption of the US at present.
  2. Next, research the total square miles of the US.
  3. Next, research how many square miles a solar farm (hypothetically) would be needed to meet that energy demand.
  4. Next, research how many Nuclear plants would be needed to meet that energy demand.
  5. Next, research how many clean coal plants would be needed to meet that energy demand.

I think that if you understand and know the answers to what I've just listed we will be having a different conversation. BTW, I speak from experience in the implementation of solar and wind generation. Renewable energy is fantastic at the micro-level but it degrades and becomes useless at the large scale level.

edit: The claim that solar has come along way since the 70's is not true. Solar panel efficiencies have not changed very much. Conversion, inversion and storage efficiencies have improved some but the overall technology hasn't changed much.
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Last edited by Innoc; 06-23-2010 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
Yeah, poor people get everything!
America, where the poor are fat.

---
Innoc,

I said solar power, not solar panels, "solar" has come a long way. That 3 dollar solar landscape light at Wal-Mart is proof. However the panels have become more efficient over the years by concentrating light onto the photovoltaic cells. First 30 percent conversion in the 90s and now 40 percent. It is interesting that with all of Obamas talk on solar I find this snippit of the DOE website, lol?

Quote:
Reaching 40 percent efficiency helps further President Bush’s Solar America Initiative (SAI) goals, which aims to win nationwide acceptance of clean solar energy technologies by 2015. By then, it is intended that America will have enough solar energy systems installed to provide power to one to two million homes, at a cost of 5 to 10 cents per kilowatt/hour. The SAI is also key component of President Bush’s Advanced Energy Initiative, which provides a 22 percent increase in research and development funding at DOE and seeks to reduce our dependence on foreign sources of oil by changing the way we power our cars, homes and businesses.
ah well...
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Last edited by stray kitten; 06-23-2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:34 PM   #63
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S
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray kitten View Post
America, where the poor are fat.

---
Innoc,

I said solar power, not solar panels, "solar" has come a long way. That 3 dollar solar landscape light at Wal-Mart is proof. However the panels have become more efficient over the years by concentrating light onto the photovoltaic cells. First 30 percent conversion in the 90s and now 40 percent. It is interesting that with all of Obamas talk on solar I find this snippit of the DOE website, lol?

ah well...
That is an interesting snippet. 40% efficiency in solar conversion is news to me. Panels run from 23 to 28 %. I think that 40% initiative is only an initiative and has yet to bear fruit. As to the comment on solar garden lights I have two words for you... "LED bulbs"!
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray kitten View Post
America, where the poor are fat.
You're right. We're overlooking one of the most vast sources of raw power. Fat people. Obama should invest in producing giant hamster wheels that fat people can run in, and require every citizen to "do their part" and run for one hour a day. Not only will that solve all the enegy issues forever, but it will also solve the obesity epidemic.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:28 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innoc View Post
S
That is an interesting snippet. 40% efficiency in solar conversion is news to me. Panels run from 23 to 28 %. I think that 40% initiative is only an initiative and has yet to bear fruit. As to the comment on solar garden lights I have two words for you... "LED bulbs"!
I only mentioned that because I had some led landscape lights a couple years ago that were horrible. And the only reason I bought these is because they were 3 bucks instead of 15 like the other ones. lol, and they work much better so wether that is because of a more efficient and cheaper solar panel or better battery (I took it apart, uses a cheap ass rechargable AA) or something, its better.

40 percent is fairly new, 2007. But the last leap, 33 percent, was taken and used quickly especialy by the space industry. Actually when looking for that 40 percent link I found someone who has it up to 42 percent now. The same dudes driving a 42 percent record are the same dudes that gave us the internet (DARPA). Maybe we are leading the world in renewable energy? At least in solar. The EU is keen on Wind it seems and everyone else on the planet outside of EU and USA would risk war for Nuclear.

http://www.energy.gov/print/4503.htm

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...ficiency-49483

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professional
You're right. We're overlooking one of the most vast sources of raw power. Fat people. Obama should invest in producing giant hamster wheels that fat people can run in, and require every citizen to "do their part" and run for one hour a day. Not only will that solve all the enegy issues forever, but it will also solve the obesity epidemic.
The government has the power to declar anything a "National Health Issue" without a check. Now that they will be running the healthcare system, just wait.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:03 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray kitten View Post
I only mentioned that because I had some led landscape lights a couple years ago that were horrible. And the only reason I bought these is because they were 3 bucks instead of 15 like the other ones. lol, and they work much better so wether that is because of a more efficient and cheaper solar panel or better battery (I took it apart, uses a cheap ass rechargable AA) or something, its better.

40 percent is fairly new, 2007. But the last leap, 33 percent, was taken and used quickly especialy by the space industry. Actually when looking for that 40 percent link I found someone who has it up to 42 percent now. The same dudes driving a 42 percent record are the same dudes that gave us the internet (DARPA). Maybe we are leading the world in renewable energy? At least in solar. The EU is keen on Wind it seems and everyone else on the planet outside of EU and USA would risk war for Nuclear.
Are any of those above 28% trickling into the consumer/business markets? I'm guessing most of those are proof of concept devices or too cost prohibitive to justify commercial availability....or those that have never passed standardization tests.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:06 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innoc View Post
Are any of those above 28% trickling into the consumer/business markets? I'm guessing most of those are proof of concept devices or too cost prohibitive to justify commercial availability....or those that have never passed standardization tests.
I think at this point we have to clarify efficiency. To my knowledge most packaging/governments/caparisons of real world solar panels use a number to represent an output (wattage) per square foot at a specific temperature (STC number). In the USA there is a test lab that rates panels in real world conditions (PTC number). These number are no where near 30. But they don't represent the ability of a cell to convert photons to electrons, they represent a percentage of generating capability with a standard luminance. You can buy cells over 28 percent, but you will pay out the @zz. The highest I have ever seen in a panel is 22 percent. Manufacturers of consumer products for us normal people concentrate on cost vs efficiency and we get 3 dollar landscape lights that are tiny and last the whole night.

But the cells on those lights and the ones on your house are different. Those flexible thin cells on a calculator might eek out 6 percent and the ones on your house are in the teens as far as efficiency. Some I looked at for a project (fountain pump) generated 1 watt per square foot. That's 10 percent efficiency based on the STC formula. But efficiency only means you need more space, or more panels. If you need 2 watts of power you need 2 panels at 10 percent or 1 higher efficient panel. The sun is free. Look a cool chart ....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...v100414%29.png

But yeah, solar isn't going to do much outside running some lights or a small electric device. Looking at commercial power generation will tell you solar is fairly worthless at that level. *and pretty much a waste of tax money Look a cool site...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...ble1_20_a.html

but then again, based on solar sales we should be generating a couple billion megawatts a year outside of commercial production. If that thinking is correct, that is fairly significant. Solar is magic fair dust at the moment, Greens, libs, whatever have to accept that Nuclear is the only option outside of fossil fuels. They won't so keep on chuggin the black gold. Canada thanks you, the oil consumer
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:06 PM   #68
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http://www.montrealgazette.com/techn...723/story.html

Thought I'd post this here, since it was mentioned here. This article talks about some of the deficiencies and complications of the use of Wind power.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:58 PM   #69
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IRONICALLY

About a month ago the first ever 24 hour piloted solar flight was made. Yes, a fucking airplane with a human in it that is solar. Amazing.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10550430
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