Q&A 3 - P.R., the Spy, and other wonderful things

[eternity94]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I think this is actually balanced for games where everyone knows what they're doing like in clan games. Where it could really screw things up is in pub play where a good spy can screw people as it is.

And not being able to sabotage while cloaked isn't much comfort as it still means a spy can get right next to an engineer. All he has to do is turn his head, and when he turns back the spy can freeze, making him 100% invisible anyway. If the engineer makes one pack run, then he's screwed, there's a spy waiting to backstab him as soon as he comes back, then his sentry can get sabotaged. Now granted pack runs won't be as necessary with the new changes, but I think these are only balanced changes if everyone playing the game can competently root out spies, not a pub environment. Also how the hell will bot engineers respond to this?

Chilled, you sound paranoid, and that's what a spy should do, cause paranoia.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by eternity94

Chilled, you sound paranoid, and that's what a spy should do, cause paranoia.

You have no idea. Playing hunted with Skanky as the spy will nearly get you a free ticket to a mental institution.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Iggy

You can't sabotage the SG while cloaked. You probably never will be, as that would be overpowered. Being invisible while cloaked AND standing still is more balanced than you think. You are still semi-visible while moving, and if you are spotted while moving... you are still in trouble.

Yes you can sabotage an SG (currently) while cloaked. You just have to know how to get to it. I've done it many times, and I've done it in a room filled with 3 or 4 people at a time. Its quite funny actually.

[Ihmhi]

I'm pretty sure it's hardcoded so you can't anymore now.

There was one place it could previously be done that I know of. Basic trick is to be in sab range but out of line of sight - sab through a wall, so to speak.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

I'm pretty sure it's hardcoded so you can't anymore now.

There was one place it could previously be done that I know of. Basic trick is to be in sab range but out of line of sight - sab through a wall, so to speak.

[Ostrich_Eggs]

with the hardcap in place in 2.1 is the medic the dominant class on offense? I just don't see the scout doing much without the obscene speed from skimming.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I think this is actually balanced for games where everyone knows what they're doing like in clan games. Where it could really screw things up is in pub play where a good spy can screw people as it is.

And not being able to sabotage while cloaked isn't much comfort as it still means a spy can get right next to an engineer. All he has to do is turn his head, and when he turns back the spy can freeze, making him 100% invisible anyway. If the engineer makes one pack run, then he's screwed, there's a spy waiting to backstab him as soon as he comes back, then his sentry can get sabotaged. Now granted pack runs won't be as necessary with the new changes, but I think these are only balanced changes if everyone playing the game can competently root out spies, not a pub environment. Also how the hell will bot engineers respond to this?

Good question. But at some time, you get a message that you were sab'd. At that point, best you can do is rebuild.

It basicly means you have to pay attention, and work as a team. Although, if you don't, you can still get by. However, you can always learn to compensate. Which means getting better at the game.
Win win win.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Ostrich_Eggs

with the hardcap in place in 2.1 is the medic the dominant class on offense? I just don't see the scout doing much without the obscene speed from skimming.

Depends on both the skill of the medic and the scout. You can't be a lazy scout anymore though, and you better get used to timing concs well and using conc combos.

[chilledsanity]

Chilled, you sound paranoid, and that's what a spy should do, cause paranoia.

Well I'm suspicious. I was also suspicious that lowering the health of the sg's was a bad idea (without having played it) and it looks like that idea was axed. I also made several posts in the pre 2.0 thread expressing concerns about how the new changes were going to break AvD balance, which I think proved to be the case. I'm hardly Nostradamus here, but it would be nice to hear a solid reason why this won't unbalance things for pubbing.

However, you can always learn to compensate. Which means getting better at the game.

I'm sure I'll be able to defend myself against spies adequately, (or ghosts as the case may be), I'm thinking more of new pub members who just want to jump in and have fun, not realizing they have to be on paranoid mode not to fuck over their team from getting sabotaged more easily than ever now.

[Ostrich_Eggs]

Originally Posted by squeek.

and using conc combos.

OH GAWD

[Hammock]

As I mentioned to Ihmhi the other day. This whole spy not being caught cloaked by sg's anymore seems a bit over powered.

Everyone talks about how with certain gfx cards and settings the cloak is easy to see through for some players. But for myself it's completely opposite. With my settings completely maxed out it is near impossible for me to see cloaked spys. Infact I could be in the middle of DMing them and when they cloak I loose complete sight of them about 80% of the time. The only reason I can still get the kill is because I know where they are and how far they can move while cloaked. Otherwise I almost never see cloaked spys.

The SG was the only protection against this, atleast it provided a little comfort to know that no cloaked spy is going to get behind me when an sg is around.

It's one thing to be paranoid in an arbitrary position in your base, but being paranoid 100% of the time everywhere in your base will just suck.

Sometimes it's hard enough to stop a spy from pushing the flag forward while he's disguised as it is, but with cloak not stopping them anymore, you get situations like in SD2 for example where the spy can now without hinderance climb up one of the two ladders silently without an sg locking on to him and toss the flag out.

Atleast in a normal situation the sg would help a defender know if a spy is inc because he wouldn't be able to climb the ladder cloaked so he could be spotted.

And what about bigger maps with lower numbers? It's impossible to defend every entrance into the base in situations like that since there aren't enough people to cover every area. So once the spy gets in he has free reign of the base? AND can go completely invisible when an enemy is near by?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that atleast before there were counter measures to defending against a cloaked spy, now there isn't any (and a pyro running around shooting every wall and corner is completely fucked up, that's not skill or a strategy, that's a waste of time). There used to be scouts radar and the sg, now there's nothing.

There's got to be something to counter this, something you can say to your team, okay we got cloaked spys running around we need <this> to stop it.

For example, people hate spy defense, but it's done all the time, I'm not sure why people hate going up against spy defense it can be effective. So if a spy can cloak, you could logically say spy's can see through cloak. Then the spy would have a valid purpose on both offense and defense.

"Okay guys we got cloaked spys running around we need a spy on D to help find them". The defensive team would need to dedicate an entire guy to defense of this, too many spys on defense would be counterproductive since it would weaken the D lineup.

But there's got to be a balance, you can't have someone completely capable of entering and running around the enemy base without some other person being able to defend against it. SG's were our defense, now there's nothing.

Being paranoid 100% of the time isn't fun, I know I would get frustrated pretty quickly if I can't counter something in some manner, and would either dedicate more time to league style matches where the spy isn't as much of a problem, or go play another game.

*Edit*

I also think the arguement of the spy having to be disguised for him to get past the cloak is a weak one to boot, since it's insanely fast to disguise now.

If the cloaked spy is no longer spotted by sgs and no counter measures put in to fight against it, then other changes would have to be made to the disguise/cloak functionality.

Like the timer for recloaking should start once the spy looses his cloak, not from the time he starts his cloak. So the spy can't just cloak sit there for a few seconds, shoot his tranq off then immediately recloak. The recloak timer should start after he looses, not once he starts.

And disguising WHILE cloaked should take 2-3 times longer than when he's not cloaked.

[reaper18]

I have to completely agree with hammock, on every point.
Cloaked spys not being seen while disguised is overpowered.

[elwood]

All valid points hammock, but if a spy wants to just cloak around the enemy base all day and take forever than so be it. If that's the case, if i were playing defense, i would rather see a spy just sit around cloaked and do nothing as effective as another strong medic/scout. I am not saying these new changes will not make the spy over-powered, but it will definitely make it easier for other people who don't primarily play the class. With that being said, i can see clan matches being more exciting because it wouldn't be that tough for some random person that plays smart on the offense squad to man-up and switch from med/scout to something that could* work against a defense. Because currently even though in 2.1 they are changing the armor/health on sg's to take them down easier... i still think the tracking will be the same? Not 100% sure on that, but if it is then sg's will still be very effective against med/scouts/offense that's surrounded by a smart team oriented defense. You keep the sentry gun up, then you will definitely keep the offensive caps down to a minimum because of the tracking. Meanwhile, what's wrong with some paranoia? It's team fortress-based game and it's supposed to be exciting


There are so many ways to be effective with spy already. I'd like to think i am a pretty effective spy with or without other smart scout/meds that will contribute to moving flags, however i typically don't cloak around the enemy base because it takes too long. Rarely do i feel the need to cloak to get from place to place. Like i said before it takes longer, plus you're not guaranteeing your safety as a spy. Currently it's a risk to be cloaked and slow because people can spot you moving around fairly easily for the most part. I come from TFC and played basically as medic and very rarely changed to scout because i was a DMer, but movement was huge and that's how i play spy in FF. I play the FF-spy like i play medic. Movement is huge, especially with grenade jumping due to decreased damage from that an fall damage.

I am not a beta tester so i am just speculating by guesstimation. Without a doubt i bet pubbing will be drastically chaotic with spys due to the fact of lack of organization. Match-play however, i don't see too much of a difference because coordination will be around on all fronts.

[GeoKill----->]

He makes a good point about Shutdown. Go plank, disguise then cloak. Go up the stairs and toss the flag out. I did this several times during playtest.

[Hammock]

what's wrong with some paranoia? It's team fortress-based game and it's supposed to be exciting

Being paranoid 100% of the time isn't fun,

Without a doubt i bet pubbing will be drastically chaotic with spys due to the fact of lack of organization. Match-play however, i don't see too much of a difference because coordination will be around on all fronts.

I know I would get frustrated pretty quickly if I can't counter something in some manner, and would either dedicate more time to league style matches where the spy isn't as much of a problem

I think we're pretty close to being on the same page, we both feel pubbing will go to shit, and league style will remain very similar.

[Iggy]

On paper, it may seem overpowered. In practice, it isn't.

Being invisible does not mean being invincible. MANY things can disrupt the cloak. A nearby nade can bounce you out of the field, a random shot could also produce blood... as well as others. Knowing there is a spy around will make you more aware of your surroundings. The spy can only be unseen if standing still. At this point, the only thing he can do, is sit still... and even that doesn't prevent detection.

Team mates can accidently expose you. I've had that happen to me in the beta.

Trust me, it's fairly well balanced.

As for Shutdown.... I've done that same trick. It doesn't work for long, though. 3 times at most before you are found, and killed.

[trepid_jon]

Plus, I would say in sd2 you should be on full alert when the security's down.

However, it could be good to let SGs see cloaked spies within a shorter distance (I'm thinking 1/4 or 1/3) than the regular distance. Just doesn't seem right when you're diguised, though. But for balance reasons, it may seem right.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Iggy

MANY things can disrupt the cloak. A nearby nade can bounce you out of the field, a random shot could also produce blood... as well as others. Knowing there is a spy around will make you more aware of your surroundings.

Originally Posted by Iggy

Team mates can accidently expose you. I've had that happen to me in the beta.

Yeah, except this has all been true since 1.0, there's no new detection method for these new abilities.

Originally Posted by Iggy

the only thing he can do, is sit still... and even that doesn't prevent detection.

Actually that IS what it does. If a spy is standing still, there is NO WAY to detect them, short of blasting up your own base and fighting ghosts. I love how Hammock put it:

Originally Posted by Hammock

a pyro running around shooting every wall and corner is completely fucked up, that's not skill or a strategy, that's a waste of time

Finally:

Originally Posted by Iggy

Trust me, it's fairly well balanced.

This isn't a good argument. I was given this line many times when discussing concerns about 2.0 breaking AvD play.

Several people (including myself) seem to be having the conclusion that these changes won't negatively affect league play much, but could devastate pubbing, especially smaller games. Also without sg detection, spies could completely ruin games with bots in them. Why will this not be the case?

[zE]

I kinda agree with spy changes, in the good old tfc days i´ve played always as medic, in FF it depends alot on the map, as offie in sd2 i play as scout, in stowaway2 as a demo, in plasma as a spy, etc etc, because classes are a lot more balanced, so the spy and the hw changes are fine by me.

[trepid_jon]

I think they're valid concerns and we'll definitely test out some stuff (like the shorter sg range for cloaked spies I mentioned earlier).