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Old 11-13-2008, 03:27 PM   #1
Jeroi
 
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+jump on Mwheelup and down

So before you blame this not being bug, I intend to give reasons why it is bug.

Essentially: Many players on TFC used Mwheelup or down to jump on TFC. There were also players who used bunnyhop scripts for giving easier bunnyhopping. Not all of them used Mwheelup or down to use that script, but most did.

The essential meaning of this is that most people who used mwheelup or down to jump felt that it was the best bind for jumping because other mouse buttons were needed for grens, and left arm is strafing and using space makes too much noise and left arm strafing is not that easy when you are also controlling space with same arm to jump.

This reason still applies to FF.

But FF has given "Easier" bunnyhopping with no scripts. The downside of this is that you cant use the mwheelup or down, because wheel gives many +jump command in air so jump can be disabled on the air before you land and your bunny is gone.

The bug is this:

The "easier" bunnyhop jumping works with every other buttons than mwheeldown and up. The code really needs a check that if mwheeldown or up is used for +jump, code will allow only one command in air to queve the jump, then after the jump it allows again only one +jump.

So the code needs to really check, if mwheeldown or up is used for +jump, allow only one +jump command after one +jump to queve the jump. Or letting mwheel to queve many jumps so releasing mwheel player would jump as many times he rolled mwheel.Everybody knows, that bunnyhop is not that easy, even if you can use mwheeldown and up for bunny.

This is really in my opinion a code bug, because this makes bunny impossible for players who are really used to use wmheelup or down in every action game for jumping arround, not just TFC or FF but every other games.

The poll for this bug:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ad.php?t=18236

Last edited by Jeroi; 11-20-2008 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:08 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroi
The essential meaning of this is that most people who used mwheelup or down to jump felt that it was the best bind for jumping because other mouse buttons were needed for grens, and left arm is strafing and using space makes too much noise and left arm strafing is not that easy when you are also controlling space with same arm to jump.
That is not even close to why the mousewheel was used for jump in TFC. It was because it allows for multiple jumps in quick succession, allowing for easier "timing" of jumps for bunnyhopping.

Either adapt to the new FF jump queuing technique, which really shouldn't take longer than 15 minutes, or see this thread:

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ad.php?t=17307

But, beware, mousewheel jumping is NOT the best way of bunnyhopping anymore. You will essentially be at a disadvantage if you choose to use it.

And, it is not a bug.
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Last edited by squeek.; 11-13-2008 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:14 PM   #3
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Maybe we should consider doing something with mousewheel as a legacy sorta dealie? Would it really be hard to add a checkbox with this option?
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Maybe we should consider doing something with mousewheel as a legacy sorta dealie? Would it really be hard to add a checkbox with this option?
With what option? The script Jester made is essentially a workaround, not a solution. There really isn't a solution to the mwheel problem, except learning to use another key/button.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:43 PM   #5
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It really is easier and better to just learn to hold jump while in mid jump. You'll be reaching speeds much higher (about 20% I found back in 2.0) as well as getting to that speed much faster than if you used any other method.

It's a different game and requires a different skill. It shouldn't take you any longer than 15 minutes to learn to hold jump in mid jump instead of pressing it.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:25 AM   #6
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Don't even have to hold it just tap it just before you land and you're done.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:47 PM   #7
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oh wow...................................... jeroi, you clearly must have been awesome at TFC, so with insane skills like yours i'm sure you'll manage to learn to press a button to jump. even cowe can.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caesium
oh wow...................................... jeroi, you clearly must have been awesome at TFC, so with insane skills like yours i'm sure you'll manage to learn to press a button to jump. even cowe can.
The sarcasm is almost palpable.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:11 PM   #9
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Why, do all but developers, think that mwheeldown or up is actually the best button for jumping?

Till exsample: I played hl2 recently trhue with mwheeldown as jump button, the physics were not ideal for bunny but even tho it was the best button to control jumping arround. as normally middle finger is not used as noname finger controls mouse2 so middle finger is very cable to controll mwheel.

Also I played doom3 with mwheel and went good also.

I played 4 years tfc with mwheeldown. WHy all the sudden because developers want, I need to switch my jump key to space?

I don't.

1. I have a baby, and when I was testing FF and did try bunny with space, my openwife (term in finland of your Unofficial marriage with woman that lives with you on same appartment) watched me right away with that look: "are you sirious?" If you Understand what that means, is that space is so loud key, and if you continue bunny with space or anykind of button repeately, it makes a lot of unnecessary sound. Mwheeldown or up dont.

2. Any other mouse buttons are needed for grens and speacil attacks of carahter. It is a lot of easier to control your movement with left arm and your gren hand and weapons hand is right arm. That includes in bunny also that it is easier to control movement with left arm, and control jumpin with right arm.

3. Also, is it proper way to code a game secuel, and then tell to old gamers used to use their configs, learn new method to control your carahter, even tho they use their same configs in every action game out there?

4. Even every console out there uses left arm for controlling movement, right arm for jumping and fire. This tells you that every gaming logic out there tells that your jumping and firing arm is right. You even bunny & fire your e-penis with right arm usually.

5. Is there actually any good reasons to use non mwheeludkey for bunny? No, just developer hype of better system, that makes our best suited mwheeldown/up unnecessary. Who told in first place, that game needed to have "better" system that do not need mwheeldown or up? Is the wmheeldown or up really taught as not needed key? I just wonder who thinks this way as it is just the BEST key in world for bunnyhop. Thats why you dont need to put a feature to game, that makes the best key not usable.

Perhaps adding mwheelud support for the system, it would not be anymore a issue?
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:15 PM   #10
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You can't just "add mwheel support". It's the way jump queueing works. If you spam the command, the game doesn't receive it at the ideal time. That's just how it is.

If you want something that'll work better, try this

bind mwheeldown "+jump; wait; wait; wait; wait; -jump"

Then just click down once before you land.

Or bind mouse3, or mouse4, or use the arrow keys and bind Ctrl like I do.

I refuse to believe that you started using mwheel to jump in TFC because it seemed better, and not just to learn how to bhop. Doing it for years in TFC will train you to try and use it everywhere else.

I did the mwheel jump thing just as long, you know how long it took to adjust to FF? Five seconds. Quit whining and try it.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroi
Why, do all but developers, think that mwheeldown or up is actually the best button for jumping?
They don't. The only people that think that the mouse wheel is actually a good medium for jumping are TF players that couldn't get the BHop timing right and relied on it.

The best FPS players on the planet, those that play Quake, all use jump queuing like is present in FF. There's probably a reason for that.

Edit: Your console argument is poor. Consoles are the worst medium for FPS games ever.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroi
Why, do all but developers, think that mwheeldown or up is actually the best button for jumping?
If switching hands for jump is too much for you, try using mouse2 as jump. I've been using it for as long as I can remember.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:48 AM   #13
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Actually I just bound "+jump" to mwheelup and it works exactly as in TFC.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
With what option? The script Jester made is essentially a workaround, not a solution. There really isn't a solution to the mwheel problem, except learning to use another key/button.
Could someone explain to me, as briefly as possible, how the whole mousewheel-down jumping thing worked in TFC?

I bhopped manually - and badly - in TFC. I always personally thought that resorting to the mousewheel was a crutch, especially since two of my close friends (TFC vets from day one) could bhop well without the mousewheel.

I don't think it would be impossible to find at least some sort of compromise. A solution, perhaps not, but maybe a compromise?

I might not have any preference for the ol' wheely spinny, but clearly a lot of people do. I thought we were the guys who at least made an effort to provide for the diverse playstyles and skillsets. in our community, unlike some companies who just outright abandon them.

So yeah, again - Could someone explain to me, as briefly as possible, how the whole mousewheel-down jumping thing worked in TFC?
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Old 11-16-2008, 07:45 PM   #15
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1. Bind jump to your mousewheel

2. Before you land spin mousewheel (this spams the jump command so you jump as soon as you land )

Simple enough?
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Old 11-16-2008, 09:50 PM   #16
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Basically it just increases the likelihood that a jump command will be immediately upon landing, rather than trying to time it manually.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Basically it just increases the likelihood that a jump command will be immediately upon landing, rather than trying to time it manually.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garland-W
Actually I just bound "+jump" to mwheelup and it works exactly as in TFC.
Yes, but in FF you are at a disadvantage using the mwheel. It gives you an advantage in TFC, but in FF it does the opposite of that.

You likely know this. I just wanted to make it clear to Jeroi.
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:17 AM   #18
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lol, how are these debates still going on?...

jeroi, leaving aside the gross ignorance in some of your statements, here's a special toggle bhop script for you if you can't cope with learning a new bhop btn:
Code:
alias omgisucklol "+jump;say OUTA MY WAY HERE CUM TEH PROE HUNNYBOP"
alias icantlearnanewbtn "-jump;say NOBODY PANIC THE SPEEDYLOL IS DEACTIVATE"
bind mwheeldown omgisucklol
bind mwheelup icantlearnanewbtn
btw Garland-W, yes sticking jump on the wheel will work, but it's rly not ideal (you'll not get perfect jumping). so yeah, my advice to anyone who wants to play FF at all seriously is just bind jump to a BUTTON and get used to it. it's really very simple.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:29 PM   #19
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It doesn't feel any different to me. Do I go slower or what?
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:49 PM   #20
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yeah, you'll loose an extra little bit of speed every jump cos on average you're not jumping _exactly_ when you land. that said, in theory you might always jump exactly when you land if you're rotating the mouse wheel faster than the ticrate of the server (66Hz for most FF servers, but packet delays could screw that theory up lol). so yeah, bind jump to a button ftw
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