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Old 08-07-2008, 01:00 PM   #41
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By the time we stop complaining about stuff, and you guys stop testing our complaints, it will be March of 2009 and everyone will still be asking WhenWill2.1Out.

I have different concerns as well, but that's also what subsequent patches are for...It's almost the middle of August, I think we should stop complaining and let the dev's finish what they have.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trepid_jon
However, it could be good to let SGs see cloaked spies within a shorter distance (I'm thinking 1/4 or 1/3) than the regular distance. Just doesn't seem right when you're diguised, though. But for balance reasons, it may seem right.
That would be a very interesting concept to try and worth a shot for sure before the final 2.1 release. Might even be a good happy-medium to all this hooky-pooky forum discussion.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:29 PM   #43
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I have different concerns as well, but that's also what subsequent patches are for...It's almost the middle of August, I think we should stop complaining and let the dev's finish what they have.
I don't think fixing bugs that have been present since 1.0 are the big time-killer for the devs. I think it's adding completely new maps and features that need to be tested. Honestly I think the latter would be better suited for subsequent releases, but it sounds like they're trying to do it all for 2.1, so it may be a while before release.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:43 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by chilledsanity
I don't think fixing bugs that have been present since 1.0 are the big time-killer for the devs. I think it's adding completely new maps and features that need to be tested. Honestly I think the latter would be better suited for subsequent releases, but it sounds like they're trying to do it all for 2.1, so it may be a while before release.
Which is disappointing as I know myself along with many other have heard/expected a late July, mid-August release. I do however agree with how they're handling it and understand the need to want it as polished as possible.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Yeah, except this has all been true since 1.0, there's no new detection method for these new abilities.

Actually that IS what it does. If a spy is standing still, there is NO WAY to detect them, short of blasting up your own base and fighting ghosts. I love how Hammock put it:

Finally:
This isn't a good argument. I was given this line many times when discussing concerns about 2.0 breaking AvD play.

Several people (including myself) seem to be having the conclusion that these changes won't negatively affect league play much, but could devastate pubbing, especially smaller games. Also without sg detection, spies could completely ruin games with bots in them. Why will this not be the case?
Well, I'm no pro-Spy... but I have been both successfull, and detected(and killed) depending on the people involved. If they are aware of their surroundings... I can't pull off anything. Same if I get caught in a crossfire between enemy players and my own team. Actually, that's been the most detrimental part.

I have no clue how bots will work, as I have not played against them. Nor do I have any idea when they will be available for testing.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:19 AM   #46
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I don't see the spy's cloak as a problem, even in theory (I know it works in practice). Before 2.1, the spy had no cloak. Now he does. It's no good complaining now about a feature he was supposed to have from the begining.

But honestly it works great now. You can creap ahead whenever no one's looking and you're still totally visible as always when you're moving. Given the speed of FF, it's a pretty big trade off to take the time to remain unseen.

Personally, I think the spy could use a lot of reworking, as right now you can slowly creep into a map undetected and grab the flag, at which point everyone knows where you are. Or you can conc in there at top speed with medic or scout and grab the flag, and you're in the same position. Granted there's some funny stuff you can do like in Shutdown, but it's not going to disrupt balance.

Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Like the timer for recloaking should start once the spy looses his cloak, not from the time he starts his cloak. So the spy can't just cloak sit there for a few seconds, shoot his tranq off then immediately recloak. The recloak timer should start after he looses, not once he starts.
Isn't this how it's always worked already...?
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezumi
Also:

Isn't this how it's always worked already...?
No it's not. If you cloak and stand for like 5 seconds, you can decloak and recloak immediately.

I've been pestered by many a spy's that hide in a corner or something while cloaked, shoot their tranq at you then immediately recloak.

Some players dedicate entire games to this, not going for the flag, or defending theirs, just tranq/recloak/repeat.

Quote:
as right now you can slowly creep into a map undetected and grab the flag, at which point everyone knows where you are. Or you can conc in there at top speed with medic or scout and grab the flag, and you're in the same position.
No you're not in the same position, the medic or scout has had to fly past any defense in the way to get to the flag, by the time they reach the flag defenders already know you're there, the sg could have already been tracked on them, some form of defense is aware.

With no form of detecting the cloaked spy when he reaches the flag, the front line D is still in the front line, the sg hasn't been able to track allowing for flag pushes.

I'm not out to flame the beta testers here but I'm not sure all of them are really thinking objectively. You say it seems balanced when you test and it works and all that. But seriously you ALL know what you're doing, every single one of our beta testers is an experienced player of some kind. How on earth can you possibley think you can replicate a pubbing experience? Oh i'm sure you can mimic some stereotypes in a pub and act like griefers and do stupid things.

But when push comes to shove, you know what and how to stop something. If a spy is sneaking in (and we'll keep using SD2 as an example but it goes for many maps as well) through the plank repeatedly you guys know how to adjust, you're more coordinated and filled with communication. It's instinct for any experienced player.

But lets take a true legitimate group of noobs mixed with some vets, in a pub environment, there's very little communication, the vets take advantage of the noobs lack of skill and communication (hell we do it now), but atleast now there IS a way for a noob to protect himself. Sometimes there's another vet around to help protect the inexperienced but that's not always the case.

How much fun do you possibly think it will be for a new person to the game to be continuously harassed, raped and dominated by something they can't see don't know how to look for and have absolutely no way of countering?

Atleast now a beginner if he keeps getting backstabbed and capped on as a solly knows and understands he can switch to engineer atleast for the sole purpose as not to be surprised by a ghost.

What's he got going for him now? Just call on another vet for help? There won't always be one around or free to help him out. Even now I've seen many times people leaving because they get sick of being dominated so hard. Hell i've seen vets leaving because a group of other vets on the other team is dominating him since he appears to be the only one who knows whats going on while the rest of his team is being completely random.

Vets and noobs a like need some form of countering something else, it's not like 1 sg defends an entire base, but atleast 1 sg defends from surprises in its designated area and in it's radius of defense people can NOT be paranoid, while stepping out of that area opens it up to anything.

Defending an sg with noobs around will become a 2 man job, since a spy can sit and wait in a corner in plain sight of the sg and wait for the engy to run for a pack, he can slowly move forward. Hell he can sit on the opposite side of the sg while cloaked and still wait for the engy to leave. Will there need to be a soldier nearby one at all times now just to shoot randomly at the sg incase a spy has slipped by and is just waiting next to it for the opportune time to sab it?
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:04 PM   #48
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And how is the Spy supposed to get that close without being detected? Do you know how easy is to be seen while moving, even crawling? Hell, a random conc from one of your teammates could hit you and you are already decloaked!

I've played OvD pub games, and the only time I've been able to get past the Defense as Spy, I've done it not cloaking, but using the hole on the Defense my teammates leave to get in uncloaked, but disguised, then ocasionally cloak when there are lots of enemies and hope to not be seen. THEN reach the Flag Room, fool the enemies with the disguise to sab or, in case they already know I'm a Spy, drop the grenades at the SG and blast it with the SShotty. There's usually at least a Demoman in the Flag Room, so even if the Engineer goes away, you can still not move freely since he will detect any move you do while cloaked.

Also, there is no need to go around cloaked to do flag touches. In TFC I've done it and there was no cloak, just grenade jump in and touch it.

I think we shouldn't be bashing an idea we haven't even played, so I'm refering to the current patch, and I use more the disguise than the cloak to move around the enemy lines.
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:26 PM   #49
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It's hella easy to get into FRs in pubs when things are soo chaotic. And it's not easy for everyone to spot spys. The moving cloak stuff with my settings is only visible when a spy is within 3 feet of me. But my problems seeing them aside, how do you think it's possible for 1 spy to sab 3 sg's in the aardvark FR? I've seen it happen tons. People can't/aren't watching for them 100% of the time, and in the chaos it's even easier to slip in. Now a spy could walk right in during the chaos sit in a corner and wait for the opportunity.

Quote:
just grenade jump in and touch it.
You're easily a target by someone when doing this, if you succeed in the flag touch/push then you beat the defender(s). Where's the balance when a defender has no way of countering you until you've already touched the flag? Unless they're extremely amazing at spotting the cloak, or play with lower DX drivers?

I'm not completely shooting down the idea, I'm being logical about it, it's all about point/counter point. You can't introduce something without providing a method to counter it, it's not balanced or reasonable. Atleast if someone chooses not to use the counter to something he can't complain about it happening because the arguement would be "Well you could always <do this> and you're not". Now there's no <do this>, and it's a very one sided complaint.

And everyone plays on different skill levels, again I bring up the vet vs noob arguement. Obviously a vet will beat a noob the majority of the time, but don't you think a beginner should have a fighting chance in defending himself some how?

Everyone speaks in first person, "Well I can do this, I can do that, this is what I'd do here", but very few seem to look at it as "How would a beginner think of this, how would he counter it, how will he react when he has no way of defending himself?"

Last edited by Hammock; 08-08-2008 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:34 PM   #50
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We'll be testing this "close detection" scheme Jon put in. I actually like the idea. Although, I do wonder how it will be balanced in confined areas(such as the fr on 2fort).

Besides, it isn't like you can do MUCH while cloaked. You still can't toss nades, sab a SG, or shoot without exposing yourself.
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Iggy
Besides, it isn't like you can do MUCH while cloaked. You still can't toss nades, sab a SG, or shoot without exposing yourself.
Actually you can throw nades, especially since the recloak timer starts from the time you cloak and not the time you loose your cloak.

I've done it, I've crept up while cloaked, hid around a corner, uncloaked primed a nade and recloaked walked in and tossed it.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:27 PM   #52
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There are few situations where I would personally need to be cloaked to throw a grenade. Usually, the only thing I'm trying to kill in an enemy base is a SG, and well obviously can't be in it's sight while doing so to throw a nade if you're cloaked. Cloaking really is a disadvantage because it slows you down. Obviously it has it's uses, but even with these new settings, it just makes it a bit easier to be stealthy around the enemy. It doesn't add too much to the spy so he's a complete badass because if he's within a certain range while cloaked, the SG still picks him up.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
It's hella easy to get into FRs in pubs when things are soo chaotic. And it's not easy for everyone to spot spys. The moving cloak stuff with my settings is only visible when a spy is within 3 feet of me. But my problems seeing them aside, how do you think it's possible for 1 spy to sab 3 sg's in the aardvark FR? I've seen it happen tons. People can't/aren't watching for them 100% of the time, and in the chaos it's even easier to slip in. Now a spy could walk right in during the chaos sit in a corner and wait for the opportunity.
To be honest, after the first time you sab the SG or grab the flag, it's about 10 times harder to pull it off again, even in pubs. As for the three SG sabbing, where the hell where the Engineers, that didn't notice a guy looking at the three SGs for 5 seconds at some point? Hell, a single guy roaming around the FR for too long is suspicious! And at least one Engie should have stood there to take care of the SGs, not to mention that by the time it probably takes to sab the SGs, you can escape three times with the flag by sabbing one SG and grenadeing another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Where's the balance when a defender has no way of countering you until you've already touched the flag? Unless they're extremely amazing at spotting the cloak, or play with lower DX drivers?
I'm at DX9.0 and I have no problem spotting Spies when they are moving, however, they can get past if I'm shooting someone, but this is actually the cloak's usefulness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
You can't introduce something without providing a method to counter it, it's not balanced or reasonable. Atleast if someone chooses not to use the counter to something he can't complain about it happening because the arguement would be "Well you could always <do this> and you're not". Now there's no <do this>, and it's a very one sided complaint.
The problem is, every class, even the same Spy, has counters to it. In fact, is one of the most used weapons, the Frag Grenade. You know how "big" most maps are, so it's highly difficult for a Spy to get through a fight cloaked due to the usage of grenades. If you add RPGs, Pipes, flames, etc. I see a lot of counters, and you could add random bumping into enemies (even though it doesn't negate the cloak, it's a dead give away to be stopped because you bumped into the air) and a side effect, a enemy Scout getting past you when leaving the base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
And everyone plays on different skill levels, again I bring up the vet vs noob arguement. Obviously a vet will beat a noob the majority of the time, but don't you think a beginner should have a fighting chance in defending himself some how?
There are a lot of ways to defend against cloaking, I've just made a list up there. And you don't even have to try to get the Spy to uncover him, actually! A new player will get that a friendly appearing out of nowhere is a Spy disguised, and he must shot him. If, even with all the odds against him, the Spy manages to sabotage, backstab or capture, I think he damn well deserves it for getting past the front and FR defenders.
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:13 PM   #54
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I wrote a big long post again, and decided to erase it, I can't debate this with you since you only offer arguements on what an experienced person would/should do, and you miss my point completely. Everything you say is based on an experienced player's skill and knowledge and my arguements are based on a game's ability to counter defend against a feature regardless of skill.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:06 PM   #55
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You cannot counter/avoid Rockets if it's the first time you play the game. Should we add a laser sight to them so new players know where not to stand?

The best way a player can pick up a game is by playing it, experiencing it and learning from his errors. After being fooled by a Spy, he will start being more cautious.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox11
You cannot counter/avoid Rockets if it's the first time you play the game. Should we add a laser sight to them so new players know where not to stand?

The best way a player can pick up a game is by playing it, experiencing it and learning from his errors. After being fooled by a Spy, he will start being more cautious.
Exactly,

Tell me a game where you can go straight into it without knowing ANYTHING about the game and automatically know everything off the bat. Especially with a game like this with different classes and different weapons you have to get used to for each class.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:25 PM   #57
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Again, erased my post, this is futile, you honestly just don't get it, your analogy on rockets was preposterous and viewd as nothing more than grasping at straws. I could try to explain it a hundred different ways and you still probably won't understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm sure others do, and if a dev or beta tester wishes to actually give me a sound reasoning behind allowing no possible method of detecting an enemy in your own base/fr as opposed to citing how easy they personally find it to spot cloaked players (skill based arguement) I'll discuss with them.

But no more responses for you, one who so obviously can't think outside his own little world and what he knows he can do and thinks everyone should immediately know as well then.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:20 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I wrote a big long post again, and decided to erase it, I can't debate this with you since you only offer arguements on what an experienced person would/should do, and you miss my point completely. Everything you say is based on an experienced player's skill and knowledge and my arguements are based on a game's ability to counter defend against a feature regardless of skill.
Yeah this is mainly what I'm seeing as far as counter-arguments. For everyone talking about the skills required to defend against the spies new abilities, please answer me these questions:

1. How will it be possible to detect a spy standing in your base without bombarding your base with firepower? Right now a spycheck means shooting a suspicious teammate, or scanning the place carefully with your eyes. In 2.1 a spycheck will mean shooting every square inch of the room. Does this sound fun or something?

2. For games where you have bots playing as engineers, what's to stop spies from coming in and turning your sg's against you every single time? You can't tell bots to "get better"
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
I'm sure others do, and if a dev or beta tester wishes to actually give me a sound reasoning behind allowing no possible method of detecting an enemy in your own base/fr as opposed to citing how easy they personally find it to spot cloaked players (skill based arguement) I'll discuss with them.
No possible method?

He's invisible while standing still. That's it! Nothing else has changed. He's as visible as ever when moving, he's as likely as ever to get knocked away, thus exposing his cloak, blah, blah, blah.

You're acting like being able to sit in one place for a while without being seen immediately is like us coming down from on high and saying the Spy must be the most powerful class ever conceived.

The very best a Spy can accomplish while standing completely still is recon, or watching an SG to determine the best time to set off a sabotage.

For the former... oh no, whatever shall we do? Someone trying to give valuable information to his allies in lieu of running in kamikaze and getting his ass handed to him? He's a goddamned Spy!

For the latter, unless he's got a damn good position, no one noticed he got to the damn good position, and he never moves, he may never be found. But he won't accomplish anything, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Yeah this is mainly what I'm seeing as far as counter-arguments. For everyone talking about the skills required to defend against the spies new abilities, please answer me these questions:

1. How will it be possible to detect a spy standing in your base without bombarding your base with firepower? Right now a spycheck means shooting a suspicious teammate, or scanning the place carefully with your eyes. In 2.1 a spycheck will mean shooting every square inch of the room. Does this sound fun or something?

2. For games where you have bots playing as engineers, what's to stop spies from coming in and turning your sg's against you every single time? You can't tell bots to "get better"
1. It pretty much won't, unless:
a. you bump into him,
b. he gets nudged by a grenade,
c. a random shot hits him,
d. he decides standing completely still in one spot is boring and decides to go do something.

A spycheck still means all those things. THE ONLY THING THAT HAS CHANGED IS HE IS INVISIBLE WHILE. STANDING. STILL. Holy CRAP why do I have to keep saying this. STANDING STILL.

2. We can, in fact, tell bot Engineers to "get better."
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:02 PM   #60
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That's not the only thing that's changed.

Everyone of those arguements is a human based arguement.

The ability to see a moving cloaked spy remains the same, but it doesn't mean everyone has the ability to see this spy and the only form of defense he had against it is the fact that the sg would pick up on it. Now that has changed.

So before a person incapable of seeing a moving cloaked spy could fall back to an sg, or switch to engy and build his own to counter the fact he can't see it.

Now there's no counter defense to his inability to see this moving cloaked spy.

And if spotting a moving spy is soo damn easy then every cloaked spy entering the base would be killed instantly. But that's not the case, infact spys have forced myself AND other players to switch to engy just to counter this fact.

So if sg's don't pick up on cloaked spys anymore where's the counter? What "game" impliment will there be for someone to adjust his strategy to defend himself from something he can't pick up on? and don't say "Just get better at looking for cloaked spys", since that's an arguement based on the human element, and not something based on basic game design/balance.

This would be along the same lines as saying the SG is the counter defense to scouts, (if you don't agree with that then I would ask how many legitimate clan matches have you seen where there wasn't an engy/sg?). So what happens when the scouts are stopped completely by the SG?, someone usually switches to demo to take it out, and again there's the game impliment balance of the sg. SG stopping O, things need to be changed up, a different class is needed to counter the SG's defense.

SG's slow/stop scouts, they're not 100% reliable (and neither is moving while cloaked).

But lets say you take away the SG, say no more SG in FF, what will be there to stop those fast flying scouts concing through the flags and bases? The only valid statement then would be "Well people will just have to get better at predicting, scout movements, better at airshots, and get better with shotties).

But those are ALL based off of the human element, and there is only 1 group of people I've seen capable of defending adequately without an sg in almost all situations, and that's the goodfellas, the best of the best so to speak. So the arguement could then be changed to say "Well you just have to become the best players out there to stop these scouts".

Since only a small handfull are good enough to actually do that, everyone else needs the "game impliment" to better defend against them. And that would be the SG.

Same situation with the cloaked spy, what stops a cloaked spy? The SG, take that away the only acceptable arguement after that then becomes a human element arguement. And that shouldn't ever be the premise when considering game balance issues, since nothing is then being considered all things equal, instead based on current community skill.

Now of course the X-factor in it all is people's skill level at something. Yes some people are better at cloaking and moving about the base, yes some scouts are good enough to get around more sg situations. But that's the X-factor, the human element, and that shouldn't be taken into consideration when trying to design a balanced game. Everything should be looked at as all things being equal.

This actually sorta relates to that whole FF being like a game of chess thread, and the only reason why I didn't agree with a played out game of FF being like a game of chess is because of the X-factor human element. But I did concede the point that if everything was equal then yes it would be very much like a game of chess.

Point/Counter point
Attack/Defend/Counter Attack/Counter Defend.

Edit*

I've got nothing against the spy being completely invisible while standing still, infact I like that idea, there just needs to be a counter for detecting a cloaked spy in the first place.

When FF was first released there were 2 methods, scouts radar and sg.

Radar was quickly removed, knocking it down to 1, now SG's won't be able to either? Making 0 game impliments to detecting a cloaked spy.

Here's another example, on Well say the flag has been pushed forward and the engy decides to reset his SG back up in the FR (tactically speaking that would be the best decision). So he rebuilds his SG in the FR with a cloaked spy waiting on relay. Currently the cloaked spy would have to do something, either try and sneak out before it's built, or he would have to engage and try and stop him.

Now with SG's not being able to detect a cloaked spy, what's the engy going to do? Are you going to call him a noob for leaving his SG undefended while he goes to get metal to upgrade? It's such a long run. The spy could silently wait until it's built and the engy leaves to get metal, run up to the SG sab it, then recloak.

The only defense the engy has at this point is to spam all his grenades in every direction before leaving the room and rely on complete luck in revealing a cloaked spy. I say luck because there's no guarantee he'll get the spy, or any guarantee there's even a spy there. But this is what he's going to have to do every time.

Maybe the engy decides not to leave his sg unattended, but the spy is still safe, and all he has to do is wait for the flag to be capped and he can toss the flag out, negating the entire purpose of the sg being there in the first place.

Again the only defense against the cloaked spy will be to randomly throw his grenades, shoot in all directions and run around like an idiot because he thinks a cloaked spy might be silently standing still in the room with him.

I don't know about anyone else, but that seems just wrong.

Last edited by Hammock; 08-08-2008 at 10:22 PM.
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