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Old 01-22-2010, 07:19 AM   #101
eomoyaff
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TFC, Neo-TF, Teleporters also being an addition to TFC

TFC evolved with new additions, and so will FF, and it has..

My point being that in the beginning FF was practically TFC with updated graphics, and physics. Sure a lot has changed since the first release of FF, but the same shit happened with TFC.

Anyway, I actually got to test the sniper pretty damn well in a pickup like scenario. I guess depending on the skill of the sniper vs. the map, Offense would work just as well as the medic minus the concs. But on most maps, the sniper would make a good defender. I wracked 23 kills on Destroy sniping inside my own base in the ramp hall. And I'm a shitty sniper. And when I didn't get the kill, I either slowed the enemy or tagged them at times which really comes in handy. You put a good maneuverable sniper in my spot, I'm sure he'd do real good.

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Old 01-22-2010, 12:54 PM   #102
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Assuming you only have 4 def, that's not a very useful position. It's too detached from the rest of your defenders.
I think if you wanted to play sniper on destroy the best position is at top of the ramp. Then you cover that side and also help the flagroom. You'd have switch soldier like normal, and 2 out of demo/engy/hw in the flagroom itself.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:25 PM   #103
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Right.. And a soldier in a small hallway isn't cheap? Or how about sticking 2 dispensers between a flag and have a fatty stand on top. Oh wait, I know, how about we do anything in that game and call it cheap? Because it can be. I accept the Sniper the way he is. The problem is, this game isn't meant to be played on a Competitive level . It's meant for the public eye as I've said recently. The Sniper is meant for pub play. The Sniper doesn't need to be changed for anything. This game was based off of TFC. You go ahead and change the aspect of a single class and you're practically turning it into your own game.
We're talking about pickups here, you'd never see a HW sitting on a dispenser blocking a button in a pickup. There are many spoken, and unspoken "rules" for pickups, and the sniper is considered taboo to play, mainly because he's ineffective, but also because it's considered a "lame" class to play, long range killing on either O or D is not welcomed.

Give it a shot, play an actual pickup and play sniper on O and watch the entire pickup (teammates included) turn on you.

I don't make the rules, but I sure do know what is acceptable and what is not.

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Assuming you only have 4 def, that's not a very useful position. It's too detached from the rest of your defenders.
I think if you wanted to play sniper on destroy the best position is at top of the ramp. Then you cover that side and also help the flagroom. You'd have switch soldier like normal, and 2 out of demo/engy/hw in the flagroom itself.
Just wait until the enemy O finds out you're a sniper, the entire enemy team will continuously push that side, it won't work like a pub where 1 or 2 people drift in through the hoards of defenders infront of you.

It will be 2 scouts and 2 medics coming your way, with nothing inbetween you and them. You might get one of them dead, but the others will pass you and have free reign of the fr, since you're not a HW focusing on them, they only have to contend with the demo and sg. The 2 front line defenders make or break that map especially. In a regular game without a sniper, the O will figure out which is the weaker of the 2 and push through them. If neither is weaker then you have a good strong defense, the sniper will instantly be considered weaker.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:28 PM   #104
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Yeah you'd get swamped of course. It would probably be about as effective as a defensive medic in that position. But it would still help the team more than a sniper or defensive medic at front door.
If you want to prove a sniper is useful, that's where you have to try. Playing front door and getting a few kills won't prove anything.

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Old 01-22-2010, 07:33 PM   #105
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why not? What contribution to the game does the sniper give currently. When is it the better option, etc.
It makes cancer seem awesome when you have people like the king playing. It is a better option when you need your other hand to jack off.
So other than making your blood pressure high and encourages loneliness, sniper is useless.
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:42 PM   #106
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..so back to where this thread was going. keep the ideas to something high damage and long range capable and give it abilities that would still allow it to be used in a pickup style game, do what ever you need to do to the class keep those two attributes intact and make it work in pickups...
i'm reading this as you want to address the problem the sniper rifle presents, while constrained to the clauses in bold text in your post.

but what if the problem lied outside those clauses?

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Old 01-23-2010, 02:14 AM   #107
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im more interested in tweaks of the class rather then tweaks of the sniper rifle, the idea is to keep the 'sniper' name, which is hard to do without a sniper rifle.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:49 AM   #108
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the discussion going on everywhere else is more about fixing the game in this area, than fixing the sniper. as you should know, the problem is that at long range vs a sniper, combat is non interactive, all you can do is take steps to evade incoming fire. that isn't interactive in that you can threaten the sniper there and then, like any other firefight.

so what if steps were taken to better equip other classes with ranged capabilities? the only other viable option is to remove the sniper's ranged capability.

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Old 01-23-2010, 11:41 AM   #109
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so what if steps were taken to better equip other classes with ranged capabilities? the only other viable option is to remove the sniper's ranged capability.
I am going to jump in and say that implementing abilities for all the other classes to affect the Sniper makes little sense. It seems like a workaround to the probem, which is the inherent playstyle of the Sniper. I'm sorry if people think I'm just raging over Sniper, but I have a good reason to be. The only acceptable conclusion is that the Sniper has to be removed.

I said it in the other thread, but giving the other classes ways to affect the Sniper is like waking up one morning to find your alarm clock broken. Instead of fixing the specific problem, you decide to just bash it with a hammer to make all the other "healthy" working parts 'equally broken'.

This game thrives at close range. Given weapons of long range capability (which is necessary to affect the Sniper, of course) means people will be less likely to take part in close quarters combat where the game is fun and exciting. I imagine it would also encourage even more turtling. People realize that close range combat is dangerous. Give them a weapon that allows them to avoid it, and avoid it they will. The game would become nothing but a turtlefest.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-23-2010 at 11:42 AM. Reason: grammatical errorz D:
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:28 PM   #110
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One solution im thinking about is perhaps giving players the ablility to interact with the sniper's bullets. A loose example: sniper shoots a very fast moving projectile that can be "shot down", where the player can neutralize it. Maybe we dont need players to directly interact with the sniper by doing damage to him, but just need the ability to negate the incoming bullets. It might be like shooting clay pigeons, which could be fun. There would have to be more details to how it works, but that is a direction is interesting to me.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:02 PM   #111
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interesting, the bullet to be effective would have to be faster then the railgun, which i imagine is quite a task to hit as it is.

also what if (hypathetically) maps no longer had 'long range' they were all 'medium to short' range. would the sniper still need fixing? would he need to become more powerful? all classes have a fair chance at fighting at medium range and interaction would be had.

of course with that being said how many maps have long range (arddvark style) compared to how many have medium range (2fort style). it might not be that large of a task to change. would this make a sniper more or less effective in league play? ideas?

also keep ideas coming aobut 'sniper' suggestions
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:21 PM   #112
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The Sniper would still need fixing. While being able to insta-gib a heavy across the yard is a task, imagine how easy it is when the heavy is point blank? Even though the Sniper is broken because of his range advantage, against the 'pro snipers' I would much rather side with luck at long range than get nailed at close range in the chest. Getting insta-gibbed means not being able to interact. Reward consistency instead of single shots that deal massive damage.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:01 PM   #113
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The Sniper would still need fixing. While being able to insta-gib a heavy across the yard is a task, imagine how easy it is when the heavy is point blank? Even though the Sniper is broken because of his range advantage, against the 'pro snipers' I would much rather side with luck at long range than get nailed at close range in the chest. Getting insta-gibbed means not being able to interact. Reward consistency instead of single shots that deal massive damage.
Lets put that to the test. Sniper wouldn't last long enough close up against a HW to get a shot off.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:17 PM   #114
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Lets put that to the test. Sniper wouldn't last long enough close up against a HW to get a shot off.
That's not my point. Plus, we're speaking hypothetically. I was using heavy as an example because he's big. He's even bigger up close, so how hard is it to hit him (not in chance, but ability) at close range? Couple that with an instagib weapon and possible modifications for this hypothetical class that make him more effective at close range, and he could become a problem. So, the damage would have to be toned down so he wouldn't be insta-gibbing even the most powerful classes.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:39 PM   #115
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Oh, so we're leaving out facts in favor of your arguement.... ok, got it.
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Old 01-23-2010, 09:20 PM   #116
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Here's an extra idea I thought of if the devs want to go for a more subtle change:

Keep everything about current sniper the same, but add the following:

1. The Sniper Ration

Harkens back to the old days where snipers were often takers of solo missions. This would function like a grenade, but could not be tossed and with a 0.5 second activation time. Max held would be two but the sniper would only start with 1.

Upon use it would do the following:
-Cure infection
-Cure Concussion
-Cure tranquilize
-Cure Fire
-Heal for 10 health points + 10 more for each status effect removed.

The reasoning for this is something I noticed when trying to play sniper seriously a few nights ago. We were on TALOS, 4v4, and only good players were on so we decided to do some pug style OvD on ff_destroy. A big problem with the innefectiveness of the sniper is that once the O starts working together they can easily keep you permaconced and infected since the sniper can't really move.

2. Damage bonus/falloff based on distance

This is pretty simple and should be enjoyed by both haters and lovers of the sniper class, simply change the damage % to be effected by distance. For instance, a shot from all the way accross aardvark would deal 80% less damage than usual while a point blank shot to the chest would do 80% more.
Something like this:

0-99 meters: 180%
100-499 meters: 160%
500-999 meters: 140%
1000-1499 meters: 120%
1500-2999 meters: 100% damage, -No difference-
3000-3499 meters: 80%
3500-3999 meters: 60%
4000-4499 meters: 40%
4500-4999 meters: 20%
5000+ meters: 15%


Note how I am saying something like this. I am not exactly sure what is measured as a meter in-game, so these numbers could be too forgiving or unforgiving.

This would also come with a minor hud change: the sniper would see a number to the right indicating how much damage he just did with the bonus taken into account.

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Old 01-24-2010, 12:52 AM   #117
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Oh, so we're leaving out facts in favor of your arguement.... ok, got it.
I was not suggesting that Sniper would own a Heavy at close range. I was stating that the Sniper would have a better chance of hitting the Heavy at close range because he would be more of a target. It's easier for the Sniper to hit someone at close range than it is at long range. Couple this with his potential damage and he is still overpowered (overpowered at damage not range of effectiveness). Instagib prevents players from fighting back. Tone his damage down if he works at close range, is what I am saying, and reward for consistency over high damaging singles.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-24-2010 at 12:52 AM. Reason: extra word
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:22 AM   #118
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i've just had an exciting revelation that should satisfy both parties, but i can't tell you what it is yet!
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:41 AM   #119
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I fell for it.
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Old 01-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #120
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it turned out two other people independently had the same idea last night, and so that makes me the third. after i posted this i read irc and there it was :/

that link works btw
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