Suggestional Fixes for the Sniper.

[trepid_jon]

Fix hit detection + projectile rounds (require more skill to snipe [lead targets, aim above, etc]) + cooler/realistic autorifle + cool grenade(s) + sniper countering in other class(es)

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by trepid_jon

Fix hit detection + projectile rounds (require more skill to snipe [lead targets, aim above, etc]) + cooler/realistic autorifle + cool grenade(s) + sniper countering in other class(es)

[Elmo]

okay yeah sure, just 'fix hit detection' for us jon

[zE]

Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax

It's fun to snipe, but it's not fun to get sniped. It's as simple as that.

lawl

Originally Posted by Dexter

Usually sniper is the go-to class for people inherently bad at FPS with any pace
But when you can switch to the class and keep several people on lock down easily something is wrong. This happens in FF, a sniper at range instagibs people with no risk.

Sorry to disagree but that´s not true at all regarding FF, I spend a lot of time in public servers and I see newbies go trought all the classes in like 5 minutes and then they stick with pyro. Actually in the easiest snipe map the new sharking values at aarvdark makes sniping scouts kinda hardcore, its actually impossible for me to aim for the head when a dude its moving at 500 or more speed and bhoping.

But anyway changes on sniper will be made anyway so basicly im just loosing my time : ) because 1 player in ff is good with it in aarvdark xpress and 2fort

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

That's like saying it's fun to play [Insert any class here], but it's not fun to get pwned by [Insert any class here].

I personally don't have that much of a problem with current sniper annoyances because I learn to play around that class. Air strafing is key, using your weapons/grenades to annoy the snipers back.
The map express is a perfect example. I get sniped the most on that map. But when I conc from my base to theirs, I air strafe my way to where the sniper cannot see me, as they're usually perched up near their capture point. So I prime a conc to go get the flag, but position myself where when I conc myself, it also concs the sniper way up in the air. It's quite effective. Or, I just throw my conc at the sniper and it has the same effect.

The truth is, there are many ways to avoid sniper fire, but it definitely has somewhat of a learning curve to master.

Sounds alot like what I've been saying.

[squeek.]

And what other people have been saying is that all those "counters" don't have anything to do with how the sniper is playing. You don't "counter" a good sniper any differently than a bad one. That leads to frustration, because at a certain point there is only so much you can do. Your life is not in your own hands when playing against a sniper. You can "counter" him perfectly and still lose. You might as well be playing against an intentionally non-perfect AI at that point.

This is only partially true with the other classes. Countering a soldier means dodging his rockets, which has a lot to do with how, when, and where he shoots them (which is based on how, when, and where you move; your movement is then based on his rockets, creating a cycle).

Saying "sniper is fun to play and not fun to play against" is not the same as saying "any non-sniper class is fun to play and not fun to play against". Sniper, due to it's mechanics (and the very nature of a class-based game), is different to "get owned by." Each class might have varying degrees of this killer-killed gap, but to boil down "sniper is fun to play and not fun to play against" to "everything is fun to win with and not fun to lose against" is to ignore the potential of good game design: games can be fun even if you aren't winning. I think FF succeeds at this in most cases, with the sniper-victim problem (and possibly the pyro-burn victim problem) being the most obvious break from it.

[Iggy]

Nothing is fun to play when you are getting pwned. Dealing with snipers requires a learning curve. Much like anything else. I will agree that it needs to be less frustrating, but part of that is due to the lazy gamer. Many gamers want to be able to pwn everyone else their first time in. Many still don't ask "how did you do that?"... they throw a hissy fit and quit.

I've never really learned how to bhop, nor have I been very skilled at conc-jumping. I don't insist it should be taken out of the game, it's just something I haven't been able to master. I have no problem with other people using it. I don't consider it unfair to me because I can't master it.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Nothing is fun to play when you are getting pwned

This simply is not true. I can have fun playing scout even if I die every run (deservedly; if I get randomly spammed or sniped or burned to death it gets frustrating). Movement itself is fun to me.

But, I think the best example of having fun in FF while getting "pwned" is 1v1 soldier vs soldier on mulch_dm. I can lose 50 times in a row and still have fun. For example, I can even get a cool airshot/combo and still lose. The fun is not had by the winning, it's had by the events leading up to the win/loss. Those events are not negated if you lose. That is the ideal situation.

If anything you do leading up to the win/loss doesn't seem to make any difference on the outcome, then it gets frustrating very quickly. Air controlling really well against a sniper and still getting sniped has that frustrating property. Against a soldier, that frustration doesn't usually exist.

[Bridget]

I can have fun while getting owned, otherwise I would have ragequit my very first game of Fortress Forever, and even further when I decided to start playing organized matches (where I sometimes couldn't even get past the first defender and was forced to be 'that one dude who needs to constantly keep the jump pad up for everyone else'.)

It's simple why I don't rage when I get killed by a Soldier, for example. It's because of the feedback loop. When he's in a position where he's capable of dealing his best damage to me, I am in the same situation; capable of dealing my best damage back to him. This comes with range. Soldier and Medic are both adapted to close/medium range fighting, and both lose effectiveness over longer distances. Considering potential are equal (The power doesn't have to be equal; though I would argue any class capable of killing me in one hit is lame and discourages what makes combat fun: the "struggle") when I lose to an enemy Soldier, it feels as if I could have swayed the fight at any second in my favor, but I didn't. This encourages me to capitalize on my mistakes and motivates me to have another go. It's that good ol' feedback loop.

Why do I rage with a Sniper? He's always in a position where he's capable of dealing his best damage, considering he has no range limitation. This puts him constantly (because Snipers seek to put distance between themselves and the enemy) in the advantageous position of having full potential over me with little or next to none on my side of the playing field. When I die to Sniper at range, it rages me because I couldn't have swayed the fight in my favor because I was never a participant. I didn't lose because I didn't do anything (such as when I don't do enough to kill the Soldier who kills me first); I lost because I *COULDN'T* do anything. I was forced to try and avoid the fight, where in every other case, I could make the decision to enter the fight and eliminate the threat. At close range, this doesn't bother me as much. The only thing that annoys me at this range is mulching a Sniper who just backs up and insta-gibs me with one shot. Again, without the "struggle", where's the fun? It's only fun for the Sniper.

EDIT: That's why I consider the suggestion of movement to "counter" the Sniper to be bullshit. Movement is one two options when dealing with other classes. You can try to bypass a defender using movement skills or attack them head on. The choice depends on various things, and choosing the wrong choice of action can fuck everything up. For example, imagine a Soldier has 30 health. Instead of attacking him and killing him (which clears the choke-point to allow you to move through it) you decide to try and conc over him. Right as you reach him, he blasts you with a rocket and chucks a grenade at you to send you back to your spawn. You made a stupid fucking decision.

Against a Sniper at range, your only option is to move. Given his power, it makes more sense to combat him, but you can't do that. You're forced to make only one decision (movement) up until you're even capable of making a second choice, and all the movement required to get to the position of being able to initiate force and eliminate the Sniper is free-reign for him to shoot you in the goddamn face. Movement is always a bad choice against someone with an insta-gib long-range hitscan weapon, but that's all you're limited to until you get close enough to "protect" yourself. Shit sucks.