What's with all the imaginary rules?

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by -=bingo-bango=-

the only thing ive told anyone else to do so far in FF is to move the fuck out of the way on the conc ramp exits of well

those are conc exits? i thought it was the sniper block team while sandwiched between 3 soilders and a hw guy that are all infected because nobody will move ramps... j/k

[Gravy]

heh that always happens, damn snipers always seem to forget they are blocking the exit.

[Scythe]

Man those are some bad rules I'd never play by.

[Uncle-Argon]

A lot of you here are confusing the concept of a 'game' and that of a 'game world.' One of the great strengths of TFC was that people interpreted the same game world and used it in totally different ways. On the same map you would sometimes see people running sniper wars, sometimes playing hide and seek, sometimes building human towers, sometimes having a big unorganised dm, and sometimes playing what has now become known as clanstyle. In other words, the same game world was being used to host different games. The same is happening in FF. There isnt a universal, overarching style of play that you have to adhere to. The game world is essentially just a series of possibilities from which different games are constructed.

Games are formed in relation to a particular focus and a necessary limitation of possibilities. The same is true in the real world; competitive sports are formed around precisely the same principles. Somebody has already used the analogy of not being able to pick up a football as a restriction that defines and enhances a game. So, clanstyle FF is not a bastardisation of 'pure', unrestricted FF gameplay any more than banning people from building sentry guns in doorways in order to block people; they're both just restrictions of possibilities that help to form good games in different ways.

You all need to embrace the different possibilities that FF offers. Its a fantastic environment; it would be awful if we all tried to play with it in the same way. There's room for relatively unrestricted pub style play, room for the more restricted clan style, and room for anything else people might dream up. Sometimes this diversity can take place concurrently within one server, sometimes it is necessary to dedicate a server to a particular style of play. Thats the case with clan style.

So, all that being said, whats so good about clan style and why should you all give it a chance before dismissing it as elitist rubbish? Firstly, clanstyle isnt just about restrictions and class limits; its about a different, more focused, more organised style of playing. By playing def on a clanstyle server, you get to play with a relatively organised group of players who are playing in probably the most effective way possible. It can be frustrating covering your own position effectively if the other members of your def are running around like idiots, or playing in an ineffective position, and letting the enemy attackers past. You get to work properly as a team with a united focus on defending the flag. When it comes to offy, you're again getting to play with people who are all focused on breaking the def and getting the flag. You get more communication and more teamwork. Crucially, for both offy and def players, you get to test yourself against a relatively well organised and focused enemy. It also fixes game imbalances; its no fun to attack against 4 hwguys with sgs to boot. Clanstyle is focused, skillful, intense, balanced and its fun.

I can understand why a lot of new people are dismissing clan style play straight away because it seems to restrict them too much. The simple fact is that these rules actually facilitate a style of play that is a lot of fun. You really need to approach it with an open mind, learn the rules, and give it all a chance. This isn't an insignificant niche style of playing; it was enjoyed by literally thousands of people every night for years. We didn't all feel oppressed by it. A lot of people from clan tfc are crossing over to FF and organised play is already being structured around the old format.

Finally, I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions:

Firstly, a lot of rules you guys are encountering aren't necessary components of a clanstyle format. Rules like not being allowed to throw grens at sgs are absurd and I'm sure will be short lived if they exist at all. All you need to know to play clanstyle is that its played 8v8, with 4 attackers and 4 defenders on each team. Each member of the defence plays in a particular position; maps are usually designed with two ways to the flagroom which are each covered by one member of the defending team, whilst the other two guys tend to sit in and around the flag. If your playing def, you need to occupy one of the vacant positions; if you're just wandering randomly, you're letting your team down by leaving one route vulnerable to attack. Learning the different viable positions is difficult at first, but you should just ask when you join a server where your team needs you to play. The only other rule is that offy players don't shoot other offy players; it makes things better and more focused in a way you will only begin to appreciate as you play the game more and more. Its that simple. Forget the rest for now.

Secondly, we're not all elitists. Too many people involved in this style of play are intolerant of new players and are unwilling to help them learn, but they're a minority. Unfortunately, they're a vocal minority. A lot of people are really happy to help you learn and would urge you to ignore the idiots. Certainly I'd be happy to help anybody who comes into the #rejects clan channel on QuakeNet and asks about how to play clan style ff.

In conclusion, give the bloody thing a go and stop being close-minded about a really popular style of playing just because you don't quite understand how or why it works. Again, come talk to me if you want help; the community wants new people playing clanstyle FF, we don't want people to be driven away. Its more fun than it looks, I promise.

[NoComply]

If you don't have a medic on your teams offence, then it's your loss, someone chasing your team mates around? Kill him, that's not even that great of a strategy, and he should be an easy thing to watch out for. Sure he's killing you but slowly, by the time his infection kills you, you could already be dead.

Oh and I really don't mean everyone in a clan, we need a word for the pain in the ass guys that give everyone in any clan a bad name even though they usually make the best teamates since they do go for caps! It's the ones that take the game too seriously that ruin it.

Play by the rules of whatever the server wants and don't be a dick if they kick you for breaking or bitching about the rules.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by NoComply

If you don't have a medic on your teams offence, then it's your loss, someone chasing your team mates around? Kill him, that's not even that great of a strategy, and he should be an easy thing to watch out for. Sure he's killing you but slowly, by the time his infection kills you, you could already be dead.

Oh and I really don't mean everyone in a clan, we need a word for the pain in the ass guys that give everyone in any clan a bad name even though they usually make the best teamates since they do go for caps! It's the ones that take the game too seriously that ruin it.

Play by the rules of whatever the server wants and don't be a dick if they kick you for breaking or bitching about the rules.

You mind rephrasing those first two paragraphs for me? Perhaps it's just me, but they make absolutely zero sense.

My take on them:
#1. Medic... bad for you if you don't got one. Someone chasing you? Kill him because infection and deaths are slow and you might be dead already.
#2. Not everyone in a clan. We need a word for the bad ones, but they are the best teammates because they cap the flag. Seriousness in FF is bad news.

[NoComply]

Sorry, it makes more sense on weed, but only to me haha. I guess what I was saying is, that if some dude is running around infecting the odd person, then how many of those end up as a kill(medic heals them) and then when you take in the fact that those people just toss nades in the front door, die and respawn. The amount of good that the infection did for your team needs to be weighed down against the simple fact that someone on your team will probably die in this suicide run. Now if you killed someone before they could spam your entrance...see what I'm getting at, it's basically a dumb strategy.

I just meant that not all clanners go on pubs and be annoying. It's only a few that regularily manage to piss everyone off. I just don't want to generalize since I usually get along with just about everyone on any server.

[Industrial]

I think that anyone that doesnt seem to get (by reading here) what fortress clanplay is about should just watch some leetskeet moviez.

TFC was the most fun when I was a total newb and had sniper battles in well, or went spy to knife the snipers on 2fort, or went HW to mow people down on the bridge. Or when I would try so hard to build a sentry gun in the enemy base. Hell, even running around infecting people or piping respawns was a blast when I was a nub.

^ Some of you people have obviously forgotten the type of gameplay that drew you into TFC in its early days.

Not to knock the league rules (which imo have gone over the edge in restrictiveness), but allow pubs to be pubs. If people want an organized clan-like match, lock the server and spread the pw in IRC or on these forums. Run pickup scrimmages. But trying to get a newb to appreciate league rules and how they shouldn't OvO will only turn them away from the game. It's the sniper battles and the SG's in the yard that hook them into the game. We should teach newbs how to play the game, by showing them how to conc jump and bunnyhop, but we shouldn't teach them how they SHOULD play the game.

-[DO]-Flare

I can't think of any other game that's played competitively where you have a feature and then say that people aren't allowed to use it. I think it's a fundamentally stupid idea, regardless of however much you talk about it making the game more fun or organized or whatever. If 4 HWGs per side isn't balanced then the game isn't balanced, so fix the game! What if you have a map that's not balanced, do you ban people from going certain routes too?

Generally speaking, I'm all against banning stuff to create balance, because if you limit one thing you'll limit the overall too. If a game say allows someone to do something powerful but still takes a bit of skill to do then you shouldn't remove that, you should add options for countering it. Example of the opposite: CS. Everything in that game which gave an edge to good players was removed, bunnyjumping, quickswitching, soon crouchjumping, flying pistols, in CS:S wall spamming, dodging flashes. In the end, you'll have nothing to be good at.

I can sort of see the point of having rules in a pub to emulate more organized play, but if such rules are actually RULES in competitive play then . If you start banning actions within the game there's no limit to what you can ban. Banning the use of nades to take out SGs is not technically any different from O not killing O, and I'm sure one could come up with a justification for not such a rule, and it's foundation would be just as solid as your justifications. As I said, such bans are technically the same and any judgment as to which is better is purely based on opinions. They shape the game in different ways, so it's down to how you want your gameplay to be like.

I could imagine special game types springing up, like say only HWG vs HWG or hide and seek like in CS, or whatever, it doesn't matter, you can create fun scenarios by making up rules, but if the STANDARD way of competing in FF is limited by such rules then THE GAME IS FLAWED.

[SME]

Originally Posted by fidy

Some examples:

• Don't shoot enemy offense
• Don't spam SG's with grenades
• Don't spam midfield
• Pyro not an allowed class
• Don't infect enemy players
• Don't chase FC past midfield

Why do these "leet" Fortress players have to come up with such ridicilous, completely imaginary set of rules? Is it simply the lack of skill? Why haven't they banned bunnyhopping etc?

Are these "server rules" or the arbitrary babbling of players that think they count?

[Industrial]

Originally Posted by krokko

Banning the use of nades to take out SGs

I think we can dismiss this one as useless blabberings of a random RETARD. I have never seen this in TF clanplay ever.

Most of the rules like;

• One engy per team.
• One HWGuy per team.
• No OvO.
• No nades on scouts (this is more of a "bitch pls you need a NADE to kill a scout?!?")

are there to make the game friendlier. taking a shot at the enemy offense is like (lets take this to soccer analogy again) making someone trip when the ref isn't watching.

Honestly I don't understand why this has to be discussed. If there's no indication of clanplay rules on a server, then stfu about rules (cus there aint any) and kick some ass any way you want I says.

[Sabre]

Originally Posted by krokko

I can't think of any other game that's played competitively where you have a feature and then say that people aren't allowed to use it.

Wolfenstein enemy territory and even some Quake wars enemy territory demo servers limited the classes you can play.

[rannibunny]

Originally Posted by fidy

Some examples:

• Don't shoot enemy offense
• Don't spam SG's with grenades
• Don't spam midfield
• Pyro not an allowed class
• Don't infect enemy players
• Don't chase FC past midfield

There's that much? I do the following:

• Don't shoot enemy offense if it doesn't shoot me first
• Don't spam SG's with grenades <- Two grens are enough for most SGs => I shell out two/three grens when I'm fighting near an SG. If someone complains, I ignore him
• Don't spam midfield if there's no flag
• Pyro not a class I regularly play. Used to be too weak, haven't really tried it...
• Don't infect enemy players on purpose, when they have no off, to prevent whining, even though their off would never turn back to heal them, anyway
• Don't chase FC past Capture Point
• Don't snipe on a conc-platform. Please!

I remember CS clan games where you couldnt use shields

Originally Posted by Industrial

I think we can dismiss this one as useless blabberings of a random RETARD. I have never seen this in TF clanplay ever.

Most of the rules like;

• One engy per team.
• One HWGuy per team.
• No OvO.
• No nades on scouts (this is more of a "bitch pls you need a NADE to kill a scout?!?")

are there to make the game friendlier. taking a shot at the enemy offense is like (lets take this to soccer analogy again) making someone trip when the ref isn't watching.

Honestly I don't understand why this has to be discussed. If there's no indication of clanplay rules on a server, then stfu about rules (cus there aint any) and kick some ass any way you want I says.

You misintrepret my post and then proceed to call me a retard, good job on that one. I never said such a rule was used, it was brought up earlier in the thread and I used it as an example. Why am I even explaining myself to you? If you don't care to discuss this topic then don't click the thread. Maybe you're not into that whole 'opinion' thing going around the world.


LeMaltor, that's most certainly a game flaw, in line with what I said

[Zydell]

Just follow server rules and do what admins say, ignore what other plays say unless you agree with their reasoning (ask for arguments), be a good puppet and you shall live!

However, if you want to be truly free you must explore the boundaries of rules, argue with admins at all costs when they feel you are doing something wrong, and when other players are crying you must try to piss them off at any cost (points for making them cry/shout). This will give you knowledge and enlighten your mind but it will be at a cost.

Originally Posted by krokko

You misintrepret my post and then proceed to call me a retard, good job on that one. I never said such a rule was used, it was brought up earlier in the thread and I used it as an example. Why am I even explaining myself to you? If you don't care to discuss this topic then don't click the thread. Maybe you're not into that whole 'opinion' thing going around the world.


LeMaltor, that's most certainly a game flaw, in line with what I said

You misinterpret his post, he is not calling you a retard, he is calling fidy the thread starter and first mentioner of dont spam SGs with grens, a retard.

[rannibunny]

Originally Posted by barronofhellion

so dont shoot people ? what do you do make a big wall of fatties and try to block them all ?

hehe, no. Only the two attacker team-parts don't attack each other.

So then why does he quote me? Oh well...