No one plays this mod anymore?

[PartialSchism]

Good thing you're a dev or you might get banned for that. :golfclap:

[Crazycarl]

First, TF2 is more complicated than FF. And Valve is constantly adding more to their game, while we are trimming the fat. FF is just harder to master.

Second, Scuzzy, what's that? You say that CTF is popular, and so we should push CTF? Sure thing.

Thirdly, what was this thread about?

[grinningmongoose]

The reason I believe this mod is dying is the lack of advertisement, poor community support, and a conspiracy between the developers and a select few nerds who wanted to turn this game into hardcore small verses tournament style instead of large public brawls style.

1. First off, I rarely see anyone advertising FF on any other forums or game sites... Pirates Viking and Knights 2 is now a steam downloadable app, but where is FF?

2. Most of the maps in FF are ugly, shallow, uninspiring, textures are bland and map design sometimes feel too tight for the tempo of the game.

3. People claim to want a "Noob Free" or "Mature" community, but thats just not going to happen on the internet. When these servers start banning people left and right for ridiculous reasons, it ruins the community. I can understand people that hack and grieve should be removed from the server because it ruins the game.

4. Seems like the developers catered to the tournament folks, the sentry gun is garbage in pub, i sit and try to keep it up yet i run out of cells.

The medic infection doesn't spread, and if people are afraid of spawn spam infections, just have the spawns remove infection when you enter.

Also Medics I believe should give armor replenishment with their heals, due to the fast paced game play.

Increasing the sentry guns defense and firepower/speed and medics having the ability to heal with armor would likely balance out the attack defend maps...

The lack of a good healing system for both offense and defense is what really hurts attack and defend maps like dustbowl and ksour, and the weak sentry gun is just a joke on these maps.

In all, the strategy of FF seems to be more of lets conc or blow ourselves up towards the flag cap. Rather than, "there is two heavys and a sentry... we need a medic and some firepower."

And most of you probably know what i mean for example on maps like advark where you have 3 to 4 scouts on one team concing past everything. The sentry gun just moves around trying to figure out wtf to do. The HWguy is like... fuck, why didn't he die, my gun sucks in FF... the demo kills one with his trap then the other grabs the flag... And thats when you realize that their whole offense is medics and scouts...

To simplify, its a conc fest for small verses games, not enough team strategy.

If they don't fix this game i see it going away very soon.

[grinningmongoose]

TF2 is shallow and it was valves way of saying, FU to the PC community. The game feels like it was designed for the console, and it lacks depth from so many angles. The classes get boring very quickly, and they feel awkward... so stiff.

Everything feels linear, you know why? Because console controllers don't aim well. Imagine playing TFC on your xbox? It would likely suck.

[Crazycarl]

1. The community needs to help. I see lots of people complaining about a lack of promotion when they could go out and promote themselves. If the game is in such a bad state as you say, advertising it would be a waste of time.

2. 90% of our maps were inherited from TFC. And don't call someone's work ugly, especially if they gave it to you for free.

3. We want newbies. Lots and lots of them. There are many servers out there and a couple of them banning people doesn't ruin the community.

4. Sentries do need some help but mainly you are seeing skilled players who are very good at killing sentries that aren't backed up by other defenders. I don't want to see defenses made up of four engies again.

Medic infection spreading was removed because it was fun for exactly one player, at the expense of the entire other team. We remove parts of the game that suck.

A dedicated healer is kind of a waste in such a fast-paced game. It would be better to die and respawn than to take a player out of action to keep everyone alive.

The problem with A/D maps is that the game is faster, and the maps weren't designed for it. We are working on giving all defensive classes better tools to slow and stop attackers.

People run scout and medic because that's effective. It's another inheritance from TFC.

It's strange that you say you want more healing, more teamwork, less speed and concing, and then in your next post you complain about TF2. Valve put all that into TF2. That's why it's the way it is.

[WarPig]

I do believe crazycarl has a point, ladies and gentlemen you just got served.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Captain Wrong again!

http://forums.oldtimersclan.org/scuzstats_mainpage.php

Remind me to never trust the reliability of O-T server stats being representative of any type of "whole" ever again.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Remind me to never trust the reliability of O-T server stats being representative of any type of "whole" ever again.

Squeek, you've never taken any advice from the [o-t] based on our stats or anything else for that matter. We've shown you what the present community in FF wants, you ignored it. We've told you what we believe would happen over time because of the changes you've made, you've ignored it, even after everything we've said has come true. So long as you don't change your leadership, remain on the 2006 SDK engine, and only push the game for competative players your trust is exactly where you want it to be, consider yourself reminded.

Scuzzy

[chilledsanity]

grinningmongoose + Crazycarl:

My take on your points:

1. Solid logic on Crazycarl's point.

2. Point on both sides. I feel FF has very few maps that are visually engaging. The vast majority feel like bland concrete corridors along with a nice looking yard.

3. I haven't known of FF to intentionally discourage newbies, but keep in mind a newbie is never going to play a pickup or even know what it is. Balancing for that can have repercussions towards keeping newbies from staying with pub play.

4. Unless you feel that TFC was atrociously unbalanced, the FF sg needs help, period. As for 4 sg's, what's the problem? The spy is more powerful than ever, that's exactly the situation he shines in now. Multiple soldiers bombarding sg's will make them fold in a second. God forbid teams use strategy to get around good D instead of fly past it.


Also grinningmongoose's points on what he's proposing v. what TF2 is aren't the same. Rebuttals to that:

-Healing could be extremely useful to key D players in AvD games, where a player dying means the point is going to get capped. It may be a waste for CTF however.

-Calling for more healing options and toning down speed so that the game isn't a capfest is not the same it should be more like TF2. TFC has slower speeds than FF, a more solid defense, and requires more teamwork, and it's the polar opposite of TF2. There are a LOT of things that make TF2 what it is, and this wouldn't turn it into that. I don't hear him calling for less weapons, invulnerability, respawn waits, no grenades, and severely nerfed movement abilities. THAT would turn it into TF2.

-grinningmongoose, the game isn't going away any time soon, but it has a high chance of stagnating with the same couple dozen players forever.

[Crazycarl]

Respawn waits, invulnerability, and nerfed movement all contribute to making healing viable in TF2. Fewer weapons and no grenades make all classes less effective, which causes the need for teamwork. Those were all conscious design decisions Valve made to make that possible. Saying "more teamwork" is equivalent to saying "make individuals less capable".

I've done healing on IvD maps, and it felt like I was doing some good, but I don't know.

3. Newbies will play pickups if they are made more accessible.

4. four sentries on D is as bad as four scouts on O. It shows a major balance problem.

The sentry has multiple issues that need to be addressed before they get more powerful. Their success is dependant on cell supply, there are situations where they can't be killed, they get exponentially stronger when used in large numbers... Yet they are the absolute best defense against conc jumpers.

It's been a long time since I played TFC, but I believe these issues existed there as well.

[chilledsanity]

Well as far as the teamwork thing goes, I'm talking more about having a balance. A single good O player can get through an entire defense. A single good D player will not come close to stopping an entire offense.

Maybe that's the direction devs want to take it, but personally I wouldn't hang the future of FF on pickups. Most newbies won't even know what IRC is or understand why those games have rules that aren't self-evident.

My point exactly about 4 engineers. If the team wants to go that route it causes a big vulnerability gap by relying so much on one class.

As for your sg assessment, I'll try and break this down:

-Cell supply is part of their success, but there are more variables now. It is much easier for an ng to die or get blown back so they can't repair their sg than it was in TFC.

-Push is a HUGE factor in sg success, and it's quite weak right now. It was very strong in TFC

-I know of no situation in FF where an sg can't be killed reliably, unless you're talking about weaker classes.

-As for the sg being the absolute best defense against conc jumpers, I really disagree on that point. That may have been true in TFC, but scouts can stay in action a decent length of time and really move the flag even while being hit. When conc jumping, they typically go too fast for the sg to get a lock right away. I'd say demoman is the best defense against conc jumpers, though it takes more skill.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

1. The community needs to help. I see lots of people complaining about a lack of promotion when they could go out and promote themselves. If the game is in such a bad state as you say, advertising it would be a waste of time.

2. 90% of our maps were inherited from TFC. And don't call someone's work ugly, especially if they gave it to you for free.

3. We want newbies. Lots and lots of them. There are many servers out there and a couple of them banning people doesn't ruin the community.

4. Sentries do need some help but mainly you are seeing skilled players who are very good at killing sentries that aren't backed up by other defenders. I don't want to see defenses made up of four engies again.

Medic infection spreading was removed because it was fun for exactly one player, at the expense of the entire other team. We remove parts of the game that suck.

A dedicated healer is kind of a waste in such a fast-paced game. It would be better to die and respawn than to take a player out of action to keep everyone alive.

The problem with A/D maps is that the game is faster, and the maps weren't designed for it. We are working on giving all defensive classes better tools to slow and stop attackers.

People run scout and medic because that's effective. It's another inheritance from TFC.

It's strange that you say you want more healing, more teamwork, less speed and concing, and then in your next post you complain about TF2. Valve put all that into TF2. That's why it's the way it is.

It seems to me that the balance is off too much. Speed is good, but too much speed isn't. Maybe instead of bitching(not that you are) about the game being too fast for what it has in it, we should slow the pace of the fastest classes down a little bit, and see if we can find the right combination. Either that, or we scrap all of the AvD maps and start all over.

Or, maybe something that might work, is if maps themselves dictated the top speed for classes, with the current top speeds as the caps. This way, AvD maps could slow classes down a little to have a better balance, and other maps could open it up for the same reason... balance. Of course there will always be a skill difference, and seasoned players should not be penalized for having put in the time to learn and master the game.

As for other balance issues, I haven't been able to partake in a beta test for a while. Work has interfeared with my ability to participate. That should end soon enough. The SG has always had problems. Either it's way too strong, or way too weak. I've suggested a few things in the past, which I won't rehash here.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but instead of having constant arguements, can't we start trying to solve the problems? It's starting to sound like Congress in here.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Most newbies won't even know what IRC is or understand why those games have rules that aren't self-evident.

This is a misconception about the pickup format. The only rule that is ever enforced is "no yard D", but yard D isn't even that useful and could potentially be restricted by the map itself. The other rules that some people want to enforce in #ff.pickup are no snipers/no pyros, but that's just a player preference and isn't required. Overall, rules are not necessary when playing 4v4 OvD CTF; they just help keep some frustrations out (like playing against a yard sniper; it's not effective for the sniper to be doing it, but it's not fun to play against).

Iggy:

Originally Posted by Iggy

I haven't been able to partake in a beta test for a while.

Originally Posted by Iggy

I certainly don't have all the answers, but instead of having constant arguements, can't we start trying to solve the problems? It's starting to sound like Congress in here.

[Eon Seig]

If you guys really want to objectively see how compariatively underpowered/overpowered the sentry would be depending on how you changed it, why not do a fun experiment?

Create 3 sentries, each copying the statistics (turning speed, sight range, targeting time, push, damage, rate of fire, other crap) of the TFC, FF, and TF2 sentries. Put them in the same spot, facing the same way. Just make it a typical position and orientation in one of the more common pickup maps.

Then, have a Scout bot and program it to conc past these sentries, the same way and same speed every time. (Or just a really good pickup Scout)

Then your results will tell you roughly what combination of stats will be the most balanced. Or at least it will give an interesting result...

[squeek.]

That would be far from objective; how that one scout interacts with each SG doesn't tell us anything about balance.

[chilledsanity]

I agree. Isolating one variable in a controlled environment and performing a series of a tests to see what the results are is far from objective.

[grinningmongoose]

I am not saying the tempo of the game should be slowed in anyway. Scouts are not the problem, and I am against removing or "nerfing" class abilities really in anyway. In fact, I would say buffing certain classes with more health and armor may even have a positive effect. Adding a new class would be interesting as well.

I do see a problem with some classes actually being effective against a scout/medic offense. The SG and HWGuy for instance, the scout can conc past them easily, and when you have 3 or 4 scouts or medics doing this it becomes overpowered where they start to just touch and throw the flag. Eventually they get it far enough to run away with it... I'v seen like 3 or 4 of them come flying in dropping concs on everyone and just running away with the flag often. While the SG should be knocking them down, but instead the defense is effected by the concussion and the SG just makes some noises.

The fact that the SG is stationary should be enough reason to give it more speed and power, and I don't believe someone should be able to sit back out of range and out damage my repair. If the dispenser is destroyed then building a level 3 sentry is like building a straw house in a tornado. By the time I get back to build it up again, its usually spammed by mirvs or something lol.

From what I'v seen the developers tried to make this game exclusive for demo/soldier vs medic/scout type tournaments which really ruins this for other types of gameplay and public.

Adding better healing wouldn't make this game into TF2. It would give a better strategy for defense and offense, especially in a/d maps. I don't believe this would unbalance things but rather give each team more options of game play styles.

[Pixel]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

m. There are many servers out there and a couple of them banning people doesn't ruin the community.

Yeah, but only two are ever played on.

[Crazycarl]

You can't simply add something without it affecting several other things. We had better healing, and what we got were two medics attacking while tossing medkits to each other. Medics are attackers. If you want them to heal (and I don't know why that's desirable) you need to neuter their attack strength.

Instead of running some artificial bot test, we tweak the numbers and then play an actual game. Beta testers are able to change a huge number of variables until they find something they like. And it's not some leet clan match. It's like a pub server running AvD maps.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

You can't simply add something without it affecting several other things. We had better healing, and what we got were two medics attacking while tossing medkits to each other. Medics are attackers. If you want them to heal (and I don't know why that's desirable) you need to neuter their attack strength.

Then frankly they aren't medics. They no longer heal. They no longer infect. You might as well call them "attackers with nades" and call scouts "attackers without nades".