FF alive or dead?

[Crazycarl]

Scrap FF and start over? That's crazy talk, and not the good kind. What we can do, without wasting months of time and killing off the little community we do have, is continue to get rid of some of the baggage left over from TFC. That stuff we hardly ever question.

For instance:
Why does the engy only get two buildables?
Why do some classes have two shotguns?
Why do we have two different nail guns?
Don't get me started on the 2fort style of CTF map and all the issues that come with it.
Why do scouts defuse detpacks? Is that something a scout should be trying to do?
Why do classes share ammo (i.e. metal is the same as flamer fuel, pipes are rockets, etc.)?

We should look at the weapon/ability loadouts of all classes and take out the stuff that is largely useless, or things that do not fit the desired roll of the class. Yes, it would require rebalancing. But our testers are pretty good at balancing.

On bhop: I agree that movement skills add to and distinguish FF, and if it is removed, something needs to be added to replace it. There are other possible systems for movement than air control/bhop, some that may be just as fun but easier for newbies to understand.

[xks]

Gaming is changing boys, I'm sad to say it but it's true.

Even Quake Live is finding it reasonably difficult to match the consistent popularity of games such as TF2 and L4D amongst the general gamer. QL is a far more accessible and easy to grasp set of games than FF is, it also has the social network and statistic based element as well as a huge community and it's professionally produced. Yet despite these facts it's still not achieving the kind of popularity it really should and this shows that things are changing.

I told you before that FF's only hope was to stick to it's core gameplay (CTF) and make it easy to learn, difficult to master. Embracing new, fresh and exciting map design, adjusting the experience dramatically for new players in order to get them 'hooked' and enjoying the game no matter what skill level and to ensure that the community behind the game is attractive, open and active.

Instead of doing this the devs went off creating different game-modes which only serve to confuse and irritate newcomers to the game and make it far harder for you to have any kind of success. You could do well with different game modes, but since the way the community/servers are set up you are unable to do that. QL has five different modes of play, of which many will be daunting and complicated to newcomers. However, it also has the traditional 'vanilla' modes that everyone is used to and most importantly, you can choose to spend your entire QL life playing your favourite mode without ever thinking of the others unless you want to, the choice is simple and easy and requires next to no effort. In FF if you decide you want to play CTF only you can only do it on one server (that actually has people on it).

The popular servers like Talos and OT in NA have far too many maps, many of which are absolutely terrible. The over-reliance on "classic" maps on these servers is also a problem. Remakes are one thing but plain texture "classic" maps will not endure you to any newcomers whatsoever, especially when they are mostly remakes of awful maps.

I wrote here two months ago that pretty much all of the successful mods that ever existed started off simple, with one or two modes of play that were worked upon relentlessly until they felt right. The sheer quality of these modes attracted people in droves and the popularity of the mods soared to the point where they could get away with some terrible changes and still have a thriving community.

If FF was just about being the best CTF game around and all the work on FF went into making it the definitive CTF game in existence you would develop a substantial and faithful following who would then perhaps be open to other ideas further down the road. Think of all the time put into the new game modes you guys created, was it worth it? Did they really help public FF thrive? Has the popularity of FF really increased since they came out? Are they played anywhere near as much as FF, or other modes that already existed?

Had that work gone into CTF you could well have a highly polished gameplay driven game that had it's own corner of the market as about the only high quality Fortress game in existence.

When your community is only 500 strong and you start adding new game modes willy nilly you end up running the risk of over-diversifying the game and segregating the playerbase. This was possible in TFC because it had a much larger player base to begin with, plus the changes made in TFC were a clear attempt at stopping the decline in player base it was experiencing.

Many have said FF wasn't made to be a clone of TFC, yet with all the classic maps running around there are more than a few similarities. The new gameplay types may well have been created in order to distance yourselves from TFC so that you could be your own mod, but I don't think that's really helped FF at all.

It's clear that what people want is a return to the hayday of TFC. A thriving community with good quality leagues and clans all over the place, all playing on some fantastic custom and official CTF maps. Maybe it was different in America but that's pretty much how I remember it in Europe.

In my opinion you can either focus on the key Fortress roots and create a fantastic CTF-based mod which would certainly be capable of having a decent sized community and league-based play. Or you can continue on your current path and launch FF (OB) in it's current state on Steam and let the community play it and dump it in favour of TF2 which is currently providing all the newb friendly, diverse and weird gameplay that people need.

Focus on your strengths rather than trying to fix the weaknesses.

/waiting for flames

Edit:

I would also like to say that I am completely in favour of new and interesting ways of implementing CTF gameplay, I am not just looking for 2fort clones, I think the community is capable of much better than that.

I am also in favour of total redesigns of guns and classes, as long as they aren't going to destroy the core gameplay which is good right now.

You can do so much more within the Fortress genre without trying to reinvent the wheel with new game modes.

[Crazycarl]

I really would love to see a ctf map that avoids the classic ctf problems, if only to see it it was possible in this game.

The only ADZ map out is ff_impact, and it's not typical at all. The new maps coming up are about as simple to understand as they can possibly be. It's just a variant on attack/defend. We made them not to make the game different, but to make it better. Ideally I think we will eventually have only a few categories of maps:

Attack defend -- this can use flags or zones(better), multiple or single caps, but the concept is the same.
command point -- which is just two way A/D
CTF -- O vs D mode will provide variety and support for small servers
Everything else, including hunted, skill maps, or whatever.

I'd like to see an end to classic maps, but with people clamoring for such-and-such map, and with us only having so much mapping talent, it's the best option. They should never be packaged with the mod itself, though. The segment of the market who remember and want TFC is dwindling. It would be a mistake to cater to them. We need to capture the same kind of player who maybe has never played TFC, but wants that type of tactical, chaotic experience.

[Lateralols`]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

I used to be around because the game was FF, the follow up of TFC. There was no TF2 at that point. But now things have changed. TF2 was released (the official follow up to TFC) and I think Valve did a pretty good job at it, or at least I like their game.

Except the part where they took everything that was fortress and got rid of it in exchange for shitty, slow, mediocre gameplay. TF2 won't have the life its predecessors had for obvious reasons.

[killu]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

Fine, that's your opinion, I got mine.

I think TF2 is a good sequel to TFC. It plays differently, and that's a good thing. No need for 2 identical games anyways. It's just an evolution. They took out what was causing problem and went for a clean game with a good balance and polished look. Something that could be fun for anybody. League matches are still hardcore, just not in the same way.

Also, I gotta disagree when you say TF2 has nothing to do with TFC besides the name. The classes are the same, they pretty much have the same functions and weapons, some maps are the same too.

How do you make a worthy sequel to a game that draws on pretty much nothing from the original game? Sure they can identify their classes with the same names but nobody can debate they're in no ways the same. Last I checked medics in TF2 couldn't conc to the battlements, bhop past a soldier, throw a grenade at a sentry gun and conc out with the flag. These uniquely awesome features are why people played TFC and Valve consciously decided not to keep the things that really set TFC apart and if you're not going to keep those few principal parts of a game that make it original, separate, and in my opinion superior to other first person shooters then you really have just created a brand new game completely unfit to bear the name Team Fortress and a disgraceful and dishonorable use of what the word sequel is supposed to mean. It's two entirely different games with very little in common.

Clearly the true sequel lies in Fortress Forever which reprehensibly had to be left to the hands of independent modders due to Valve's failure to see a need to give back an authentic and worthwhile continuation of TFC. This should come as no surprise, I mean they didn't take the slightest amount of time in the past 10 years to fix the nail nade glitch in the game or simple other minor fixes. For this reason I'll never praise Valve, in fact fuck Valve and their money driven incentives.

[Pon]

As far as game modes go (and with a focus on AvD, as I come into FF from a TFC AvD community), I can tell you they aren't as popular for one reason: the perception that FF is TFC for CTF league players BY CTF league players, and fuck everyone else. Fuck the pubs, fuck AvD, and generally fuck anything non-competitive CTF.

It's why I've pretty much said in the past not to bother going after communities such as .id - that perception was too great a wall to climb with the FF community in it's current state.

Notice I say perception - not the actual reality of the situation (though, given that I rarely see any AvD maps being played to the end before everyone screams RTV I can see why FF is perceived that way) - and it's the perception thats needs to be changed more than anything else. The perception that FF is solely for competitive players is the single biggest barrier to new players trying the game, in my opinion.

There is nothing majorly wrong with the current FF direction I think, aside from it's image as a difficult game to get into, one which the "old men" of TFC's CTF clan scene dominate and essentially control the direction of development - and new players are scorned, insulted and punished for even daring to try and play the game.

It would need a major PR push, highlighting major features and emphasising ease-of-learning of the advanced skills (along side the training mode) at the very least to correct this. The game doesn't have to change a great deal - FF can keep the features that make it unique. But it needs to be accessible, there needs to be a way into the game for the new player.

I also think the "old men of TFC" problem is heightened by the fact we have such a small playerbase - in TFC, clan players and pub players, and all other types of players could avoid eachother, and play how they wanted to on their own servers. In FF, they are often mashed together to get a full server, and it just proves they don't mix well. Some pub players resent league players for taking the game far too seriously, and some league players tend to resent pub play for not being structured/serious enough.

[killu]

Why don't you try setting up an AvD league then? Just because certain CTF players took the initiative to set up a pick up channel and a league isn't their fault.

[Pon]

You misunderstand my point as attacking the CTF-based leagues, I think. Rather, it is the perception that FF caters only to those players and no-one else that is the problem. It is a perception that gets in the way of new players trying the game.

Whether it's actually the case is beside the point. It's a first impression that seems to have stuck.


My opinion is that it is at least partially due to new players having almost no way of learning the advanced skills FF has to offer. What training methods/information we have aren't enough, nor are they advertised enough.

They are seen as secrets known to only a few, who generally don't share them so they can stay ahead of everyone in terms of skill at the game. And yes, I know this isn't the case, but it is the perception.

FF can be as advanced as we want, as long as the methods of teaching and explaining the advanced stuff are out there, clearly marked and easily accessible.

It's not so much "Look at this cool shit you can do!" we need to focus on, it should be "Look at this cool shit you can do! Here's the basics of how to do it, go try it!" (probably not the best way of putting it, but you get my drift.)

[battery]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Scrap FF and start over? That's crazy talk, and not the good kind. What we can do, without wasting months of time and killing off the little community we do have, is continue to get rid of some of the baggage left over from TFC. That stuff we hardly ever question.

Carl, don't even worry about the current FF player base. Just focus on making a game concept that works. There is just no need to cater to the current players anymore. With fewer than 100 regular players in the community. Who cares if they leave? 100 is not much better than 10 or 1. It's not a significant number. Try putting things in perspective. If you guys can make a game that is both marketable and fun, you will get thousands of patrons! So don't let our opinion hinder you.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Scrap FF and start over? That's crazy talk, and not the good kind. What we can do, without wasting months of time and killing off the little community we do have, is continue to get rid of some of the baggage left over from TFC. That stuff we hardly ever question.

It depends on the "baggage" you refer to. Scrapping FF and starting over isn't stupid talk, it's outright retarded.

For instance:
Why does the engy only get two buildables? I have suggested more buildables for the Engy, as have other people. I suggest we work on a few of them.
Why do some classes have two shotguns? Carryover. This can be worked on but there is debate of which weapon to remove.
Why do we have two different nail guns? Same answer.
Don't get me started on the 2fort style of CTF map and all the issues that come with it.Some people enjoy that kind of map... otherwise, there wouldn't have been so damned many of them made.
Why do scouts defuse detpacks? Is that something a scout should be trying to do? SOMEONE needs to have the ability to defuse it, and it should be the fastest player, who can literally do it in the blink of an eye.
Why do classes share ammo (i.e. metal is the same as flamer fuel, pipes are rockets, etc.)? That is simple economics... can you imagine the monthly munitions bill each server would get if all the ammo wasn't interchangable?!

My answers in red, to the above.

We should look at the weapon/ability loadouts of all classes and take out the stuff that is largely useless, or things that do not fit the desired roll of the class. Yes, it would require rebalancing. But our testers are pretty good at balancing.

Why, thank you.
As for the weapons and abilities.... some should be phased out, but the problem is that nothing has been put forward with enough reason to actually go through with the work of changing it, testing it, balancing it, etc....

On bhop: I agree that movement skills add to and distinguish FF, and if it is removed, something needs to be added to replace it. There are other possible systems for movement than air control/bhop, some that may be just as fun but easier for newbies to understand.

While I don't use BHop, and I fully agree with a cap on it.... to remove it would be just wrong.

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by killu

How do you make a worthy sequel to a game that draws on pretty much nothing from the original game? Sure they can identify their classes with the same names but nobody can debate they're in no ways the same. Last I checked medics in TF2 couldn't conc to the battlements, bhop past a soldier, throw a grenade at a sentry gun and conc out with the flag. These uniquely awesome features are why people played TFC and Valve consciously decided not to keep the things that really set TFC apart and if you're not going to keep those few principal parts of a game that make it original, separate, and in my opinion superior to other first person shooters then you really have just created a brand new game completely unfit to bear the name Team Fortress and a disgraceful and dishonorable use of what the word sequel is supposed to mean. It's two entirely different games with very little in common.

Clearly the true sequel lies in Fortress Forever which reprehensibly had to be left to the hands of independent modders due to Valve's failure to see a need to give back an authentic and worthwhile continuation of TFC. This should come as no surprise, I mean they didn't take the slightest amount of time in the past 10 years to fix the nail nade glitch in the game or simple other minor fixes. For this reason I'll never praise Valve, in fact fuck Valve and their money driven incentives.

Exactly, medics in TF2 are medics. They're not one-man armies that can do everything. That's one thing Valve did a great job at with TF2, they gave each classes a specific role, a specific strength and ability. It's very good not only for giving each class its own character and uniqueness but also for promoting the TEAM aspect of the game. Each class has a specific role to play for the team.

Anyways, I think you need to get a clue, you're reasoning like a child. You expect Valve to make games like you want them to be and refuse to see everything else attached to that. Marketability for one. You're so incoherent that you say fuck Valve knowing that they're the one who created the game you so deeply love. Not an ounce of recognition or appreciation. You expect Valve to make games like you'd want them to be for fun? They're a business, they're in the gaming industry to make money. They gotta go with games that they think will sell the most. That's how businesses work and Valve is no different.

I would think they discussed having nades, concs and bhop in TF2 but decided it would not be a good direction to take for several reasons. You seem to be blinded by your frustration coming from the fact that TF2 doesn't offer the exact same gameplay as TFC and you refuse to see TF2 for what it truly is. All you know is that it doesn't have some elements you're addicted to from TFC so it must be bad.

To me TF2 is a lot closer to what the TF experience should be like than TFC ever was. You can't go solo in TF2 and expect to dominate everyone, you need to play it wisely and work with teammates to achieve your goal. That alone is quite an amelioration over its predecessor.

Btw no need to tell me again that TF2 doesn't have concs, nades and bhop so it cannot be a sequel to TFC. I get your point but I don't agree with it. If you could just try to get my point we'd be one step closer to agreeing to disagree. Not that I'm aiming for that really... just saying.

[Ihmhi]

TF2 is like if Ferrari put out a Minivan with an Automatic transmission.

Fortress Forever is like, fuck you Ferrari, we're gonna whip out this Maserati* shit.

Challenging? Hell yeah it's challenging. I'm sorry, but you give an idiot a Maserati and he's going to wrap it around a tree on some back road at 3 in the morning. You give it to someone who knows how to drive and they're gonna have a shitload of fun.

FF could not have made bhop any easier. I can barely bhop in TFC and I can't maintain my speed for shit. In FF, well, the queue system probably makes bhop as easy as it could be. Movement has a flow, it's fun. A good bhopper can run circles around multiple enemies. Our game has applicable skills beyond twitch aim, which is something most free FPSes do not have IMO.

We remove bhop and slow the game down, and congratulations! We're a slow, class-based Source mod! There sure aren't a whole lot of those floating around.

Since trepid_jon is like fuck all busy at work, I believe he would say, "Ain't gonna be takin' no bhop outta my FF, else I'm gonna smack you with my peepee."

Did we make a mistake with FF's design? I don't think so. Not in the grand scheme of things. A lot of people have fun playing it. The problem was probably CTF, honestly, and most of the devs know how loathe I am to admit that. Players just can't grasp the intimate duality of "defend and attack at the same time". Ergo, we need to focus on more singular objectives which is what we're doing.

The next couple of patches are focusing explicitly on that goal. Orange Box is focusing on prettying shit up. We'll be ready for showtime soon enough.

* Maserati is an Italian manufacturer of really fast, really bitchin' cars.

[battery]

Isn't it clear? The remaining players in this community are way too attached to TFC traditions. The are no longer open-minded to changes anymore. When they refuse to even re-consider Scout's ability to defuse detpacks, you know all they care is tradition.

A veteran player base is important for the purpose of getting inputs. But this particular one we have right now, is of low quality. It lacks vision, and the courage to get out of its comfort zone.

Right now, they want guarantees that bunny-hopping, fast-movements, and unpredictable sniping hitbox to be retained. Why? May be they spent years to become good at it. So they they want reward. Rewards in the form of being able to totally pwn with the scout class, and the bragging rights. The last thing they want is a change in the game mechanics. Of course, they don't mind some visual enhancements or more maps...

If technical advice is what you seek from the player base, I am afraid you won't get honest opinions from the current community anymore.

A year or two from now, the bunny-hopping experts will get tired of bunny-hoping and concing their way to easy victory. They will just quit without even saying thank-you. Served their purpose, right?

Developers, I think you have the skill and ambitions to make great games. You can change FF into something revolutionary, something remarkable to the gaming scene. If I were you, I would stop catering to the wants of the player base anymore. Just extract opinions from them and filter out the good points. Use them to assist your creative process.

In short, don't let the 100- players control you. Utilize them, but don't be enslaved by them. Your interests are far more important than theirs.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Fortress forever has to have the most backwards community development I have ever seen.

New players don't join to pub, because for the most part, pubbing isn't enjoyable. The largest influx of players we get are from TFC, and they go right into the pickups, bringing nothing new to the table, nor helping to build a pub community at all.

In every other game I have ever played, it starts with fun pubbing, when pubbers get bored, they seek competition, and then clans and leagues form. Why are we so concerned with league play? There are no prizes, no real incentive to play in a structured league with oodles of rules which aren't all common sense, and many are just tradition.

I enjoy competitive playing, I really do, but in order for FF to survive, it needs to pull in new players from all games.

I really enjoy the "tricking" aspect of the game, the fact that the movement skill ceiling is so high that with proper timing, you can do just about anything that you want. This needs to be brought to the forefront of any PR attention that is released.

"Fortress-Forever: Team Fortress lives on."

That's free of charge.

[killu]

Are you people really this naive? This game was created as a true sequel to TFC.

Oh and Sh4X yes I should be so appreciative to Valve for creating TFC and then abandoning it to a point where they couldn't even fix the smallest of problems for the faithful community. I know it's not in the budget, right?!

It was created by TFC players who ENJOYED TFC and wanted to continue with that type of game play.

They don't want to add all this other garbage they just want to play TFC with better graphics. I know this sounds overly simplistic but I think it's very true.

TFC is the best game of all time why would you want to make drastic changes?

I like FF as is I just wish there were more problems. I don't see that happening so I'm just going to have fun with the few people who still play this game I don't really want these modders who rarely if ever play this game to implement changes that dramatically change the game. I think most of the community that has played FF since its release would agree.

That is all.

[battery]

^
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Programmers, designers, and artists. This is the mindset of the present community. People do notice the scope of this game is very limited. They know the player base is dwindling. Yet they are content to let FF die. The future of FF means little to them. They just want present "ownership" of FF, have their short-term fun, and move on once boredom sets in.

I sense that you develop this game for free because you love what you do. I trust you hold high expectations for FF. I implore you to pursue those ends. Us, the community, has been unsuccessful in bring in new blood. We failed to contribute unique ideas. Worst of all, we abandoned FF. I don't like to say insulting comments to myself, but for fairness' sake, I think the FF player base is more hinderance than it is worth. If possible, I thinking this player community should be dissolved. Start a new community! Bring in people with backgrounds in TFC, TF2, BF2, and other games. Don't be stuck with people who care only for TFC.

[PartialSchism]

If they wanna go some drastic direction with FF, IMO they should start a new game, not fuck this one up.

[Crazycarl]

I signed on to work on FF, not some other game. We all did.

[battery]

"When facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

--John Maynard Keynes

[Rutabeggar]

The damage is done folks. You cannot fix FF, and I don't mean the gameplay. The perception of this game is garbage. No one wants to play because no one wants to be involved with a community who regards unskilled players as unworthy and unfit to play the game. When this game, almost two years later, still lacks a training mode, still lacks fresh ideas, still fails to bring in an injection of new players with new ideas, of course it's going to die out.

The quick release of FF 1.0 doomed this game from the start. It should have never been released in the state it was in. First impressions are the most important and this mod gave one of the worst first impressions it could possibly give. Was the idea great? Sure, I know there are countless people who became bored with TF2's slow gameplay, this game should have been developed as the alternative to TF2 and released maybe as much as a year later so it could have been polished and people could have been given time to get bored with TF2 and be itching to try something new.

TFC was a great game. It was innovative and had an extensive community, but it was it's own game. It deserved a sequel, but great sequels provide a new experience and new ideas while maintaining the core values of the original. FF has the right idea, it's just the same experience (if not worse) and the same ideas. There's nothing new about this game, it became flat, static, and ridiculously repetitive and broken. Time to move on.