02-10-2010, 01:34 PM | #421 |
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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02-11-2010, 01:15 PM | #422 |
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I am going to rewrite my post from a page ago now that I have reflected on it. I believe I have a good argument for why long range mechanics break the game. For this example, I want you to first imagine the game with no Snipers. This Fortress Forever is made up entirely of classes that do best at short ranges.
When a close range class enters close range with another, he negates his opponent's safety. However, not without negating his own safety. He gains the ability to interact at his maximum potential. However, not without passing on the same advantage of maximum interaction to his target. When a close range class enters long range against another, he negates his opponent's ability to interact. However, not without negating his own ability to interaction. He gains the promise of safety. However, not without passing on the same promise of safety to the person targeting him. It is a one to one system here. Now, you may say something like "What if I don't want those advantages or disadvantages imposed on me? I don't care if I get the ability to interact when my opponent does even if he jeopardizes the same safety he negates from me. I prefer safety over interaction." and that's perfectly fine. You can avoid these situations with range, the 'safety zone' relative to close range classes. You might say something like "But, quite the opposite, I don't care if I get safety when my opponent gets safety. I don't care if he can't interact. I want to interact! I want to fight and crush the enemy!" and that's perfectly fine. You can avoid these situations by preventing the enemy from retreating. You can not be safe without losing the ability to interact. You can not be interactive without losing safety. In other words, you can not both have your cake and eat it too. In addition, when you do eat your cake, you share it with your enemy, and when you don't eat your cake, neither does your enemy. I hope that makes sense. It's a one to one system here. You get what your opponent gets and lose what your opponent loses. You can reserve the situation in your favor, but it never disfavors your opponent. What happens if we throw a long range class into the mix here? Let's assume he's playing at close range with others at the same range. The Sniper is the only example of a long range class in Fortress Forever. Alright, so the Sniper is at close range. What advantage does he get? Interaction. Does his opponent get it too? Yep! So far so good! What does he lose? Safety. Does his opponent lose it too? Yep! Wow! The Sniper is balanced, by this standard, in close range. Woo! What about long range? What does the Sniper get? He gains the ability to interact and safety. Alright, usually he gains one advantage and the other becomes a disadvantage. As long as the other classes have both of these advantages, then it's balanced. Well, there's the problem. They don't. What about disadvantages? Because both interaction and safety are advantages for the Sniper, there's nothing to fill the disadvantages for Sniper. What about his target's disadvantages? They lose both interaction and safety at long range. In all those other cases, the classes had one or the other, and when a class had x so did his opponent and when a class lost y so did his opponent. This even worked at close range with the Sniper. The Sniper is balanced by this standard in close range. At long range, the Sniper gains both x and y as advantages and his opponents lose both x and y as they become disadvantages. The problem is with how Sniper uses long range. The Sniper's ability to interact is constant. The only thing that changes is whether or not he is safe, and given his constant ability to interact, he can usually kill enemies long before they get close enough to jeopardize his safety. The Sniper can not be fixed, because what makes him a Sniper (according to the community: long range) will always be broken. You can avoid the above mentioned situations. You can retreat to long range for safety at the expense of interaction. You can keep your opponent near you at the expense of safety. Where is the safety range against a Sniper? Retreating further back never negates his ability to interact (though it does your own) nor do you ever obtain safety (though you give him more safety by drawing yourself away and becoming ineffective). It's so broken. Chart for lazy people: http://semperaugustus.mine.nu/chart.png I want to add that this problem is not just with the Sniper, it's just he's the biggest culprit. It's a problem in weapons that can function at long range too. The railgun? You can use that from safety (long range) and interact just as effective as close range. Right now the only thing that limits range is how practical or effective something is. Realistically, the rocket launcher could be used from safety while dealing the same damage when it lands from across the map. The only thing that prevents that from happening is how unlikely it is you can use it consistently (therefore effectively) in that manner. The railgun doesn't have quite as many of these limitations. It's fast enough to make it to long range to be practical. That's why range needs to be restricted in code, whether rockets or railguns or other projectiles fizz out after a certain range or hitscan weapons only reach so far or all of these things lose damage with range. I dunno. Last edited by Bridget; 02-11-2010 at 04:38 PM. |
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02-11-2010, 04:20 PM | #423 |
Wiki Team
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Location: Greeley, CO
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Bridget's got a chart! He must be right!!
seriously though, I agree with that ^ completely.
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02-11-2010, 05:26 PM | #424 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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Bridget outlines the problem and makes it clear without any bias. This is just an observation of what happens. The next step of the thought process, which bridget didnt directly outline but should be understood, is that this situation is unfair. This is showing why we believe, OBJECTIVELY, the sniper is unfair. There is actually very little that either side can disagree with in his post, as it is basically just a description of what happens in-game. The only major thing u could point out is that this situation( of sniper having the ability to interact without sacrifice ), is actually fair. That would require, i believe, a misconception, or misunderstanding of what "fair" is. Otherwise, you would have to explain why an unfair mechanic belongs in FF, and u cant win that argument.
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02-11-2010, 05:29 PM | #425 |
FF Loremaster
Beta Tester
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Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
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Mushy, shutup dude. Reason has no place here.
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02-11-2010, 07:01 PM | #426 |
The Crowbar Commander
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Location: Statesville, NC
Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times
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bump
Last edited by eomoyaff; 02-11-2010 at 07:17 PM. |
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02-11-2010, 07:17 PM | #427 |
The Crowbar Commander
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Wow, I came back again. And I'm impressed Bridget!. You've managed to impress someone who despises you . No, I'm kidding. But I do have a suggestion that might help with the long range.
I don't know whose played borderlands, but playing with a sniper rifle, if I were to get hit, that would disrupt my aim slightly. The Red Line with the Arrow is how far / close the player is from the sniper. The Green Squiggled Line is how far/ close that player is shooting the sniper. Notice that the closer the player gets to the sniper, the person shooting is going to effect the sniper. The green line gets more squiggly as the player shoots closer and closer to the sniper. That squiggle is how far it throws the snipers aim off of the target shooting him. In conclusion, this allows a better chance for players to get by the map before getting popped. This will also increase the players skill with the sniper. If you don't hit your target the first time, you'll have a harder time shooting him the next. What do you think? (Btw, How about that MS Paint Job eh? lol) Last edited by eomoyaff; 02-11-2010 at 07:19 PM. |
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02-11-2010, 07:46 PM | #428 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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I don't get it. The Sniper can be interacted with more at close range? That's a given. The Sniper isn't a problem at close range (in this context.) However, he can not be interacted with at long range. Note, when we mention 'interacted with at long range' we mean with some minimum of effectiveness. People have been saying stuff like "Bah! Just shoot them with your shotgun." but that stray pellet isn't going to damage them nor even cause them to flinch at the least. The problem still exists. At long ranges, the Sniper has both great interaction ability and safety, while the close range class has neither.
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02-11-2010, 07:59 PM | #429 |
BADASS
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil
Class/Position: D Solly, O Med Gametype: kill.conc.cap Affiliations: [TALOS] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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as i've posted on the other sniper thread:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...2&postcount=18 |
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02-11-2010, 08:21 PM | #430 |
The Crowbar Commander
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I completely disagree with taking the sniper out of the game Immo.. It's stupid.
@ Bridget - How do you not get it? I can't make it any Clearer then what it shows. Medic shoots sniper from long distance - Sniper's aim gets knocked off a hair. Medic shoots sniper from medium range -Sniper's aim gets knocked off target but not far. Medic shoots sniper from medium range - Sniper's aim gets knocked off target completely. Think as though you've just conced a sniper. Apply that but lessen the effect greatly. And as for weapons. The stronger the weapon applied on the sniper, the more his aim gets knocked off. Bullets or nails have lesser effect then shells. Last edited by eomoyaff; 02-11-2010 at 09:31 PM. |
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02-11-2010, 11:33 PM | #431 |
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And that proves what?
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02-12-2010, 04:14 AM | #432 |
The Crowbar Commander
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02-12-2010, 05:24 AM | #433 | |||||||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Inside of your Computron
Class/Position: O/D Sniper, D Engy, D Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: s^., :e0:, -=[$D$]=-, -AA-, +SUF, .20, [AH(S)]-r, [ . ]-r Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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In any event, and I don't think that this is turning what you said on its head, the advantage described is not unprecedented by any means. On ff_2fort, the spiral is very long, there is no easy alternative route, and the whole thing is very enclosed. A solider has a GIANT advantage over every other class in that spiral. Quote:
My point was that tweeking is a good thing - but when the direct result of your adjustment is to remove a huge chunk of variety from the game, there's a problem there. Long range is an important aspect of the game - I don't want your watered-down let's all mulch and DM game. Quote:
1) I'm nowhere near an aimbot - good scouts and medics get past me a large majority of the time. 2) It's frustrating when any class kills you frequently. Playing offense against a good solider in a hallway is at least as frustrating. You're still interacting with the sniper - you can try to get by them (and even kill them with some of your long range weapons, though you're probably not going to be successful because of the range advantage). Similarly, you can try to get by a solider in a tight hallway or even kill them while they're bouncing you up in the air like a juggler, but you're probably not going to be successful because of the splash-damage advantage. Quote:
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You're right though, a sniper would probably be one of the easiest classes to program because it relies so heavily on aim and doesn't necessarily move a ton. Quote:
That's fine though, ALL of the classes are unfair in certain scenarios and that's a good thing - it provides a level of uniqueness and variety. The more unique abilities the better - keep adding them instead of talking about removing them! Last edited by TheKing; 02-12-2010 at 05:36 AM. |
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02-12-2010, 07:50 AM | #434 |
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
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a medic coming up against a soldier in the spiral has a fair chance of winning. use of grenades levels the playing field to some degree, and gives a lighter class some chance of tackling heavier classes. you cant throw grenades at a sniper on the other side of the midmap.
also lets not forget soldiers also have a clip of 4 rockets and a massive reload time. now lets suppose the sniper rifle had a small clip and a massive reload time? |
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02-12-2010, 08:42 AM | #435 |
Join Date: Sep 2008
Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times
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Why doesnt the TF2 sniper rape like the FF sniper does? Bolt action reload and darkened scoped should be tried I believe. Thinking about removing the class shouldnt even be a option.
Class limits on maps Snipers, Spies, and NGs should be regulated. Keeping it simple |
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02-12-2010, 04:51 PM | #436 | ||
Fortress Forever Staff
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When i get sniped across a map, explain how that is fair. One class has an advantage and kills me before im able to do anything to them. Explain. Last edited by Green Mushy; 02-12-2010 at 04:56 PM. |
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02-12-2010, 06:23 PM | #437 |
Lua Team
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Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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"All classes have counters"
This seems to be the most fundamental design rule that the sniper doesn't follow. What is the counter to a sniper? What should the counter to a sniper be? I would suggest the medic is 2/3 of the way there already, he has the ability to cross the distance quickly and do damage when he's closer. Lets get back to basics. When is the sniper most frustrating? I think it's when you're playing scout or medic and you get killed at range a) too frequently and b) in a way that isn't fun. Here's some of the more obvious solutions to this problem. They all have downsides, but every one of them fixes the problem. Part a) - reduce the sniper's ability to kill scout/medic at range.
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02-12-2010, 06:26 PM | #438 | |
Slayer of humans
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Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
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My ears are burning I think someone is talking about me!!! :P
While TheKing is good, hes not an aimbot, heck hes not even close to one. When I want to get to him, I can get to him. It might take me a couple of times to get there some times but I will get to him. Once he knows I'm after him (cause I told him I am over mic or just stabbed him 2 or 3 times in a row) he becomes a much less effective sniper because then hes paranoid about me being around, or under him, or heck a few times when I stood on top of him for a few minute or 2 telling him I was going to find him (hehe I love doing that to people) I'm not the best spy or the best demo, or the best in any class, but if you can't get past the sniper on any map or have a problem getting past the sniper on maps then you just need to get better. Quote:
I can get to pretty much any sniper no matter where they are. The only place I have a slight problem with is on the top edge of aardvark and even there they can be killed. Its easy enough to get past them. I might get killed once or twice trying it, but once I'm out look out. And thats even on aardvark. As any class I can grenade jump/push out. As a demo, a couple of pipes gets me off the deck quickly, 3 to the other side almost to the deck, 4 gets me on the enemy deck. As a scout, I can set up a jump pad and conc out (though I suck with concs) As a medic I can conc out (though I suck with concs) As a soldier I can rocket jump out As a heavy.... I can catch bullets and keep running You get the point, with a little playing people can figure out how to get past snipers. Snipers are not god like, and if they are then they are using an aimbot and even then people with aimbots can be beat, I have done it and even driven aimbot users off servers in TFC. In the end, anyone using any class that they are even half way decent at, can scare off noobs. Using stuff like that as an excuse to nerf or get rid of a class just because you don't think it fits, well its the first step into nerfing or getting rid of other classes just because they can do something another class can't. |
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02-12-2010, 07:17 PM | #439 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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Location: UK
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so in short, you're putting the onus back onto the victim to "get skills"? hardly appealing to new players.
and anyway, avoidance isnt the solution we want, that's the point we're making. that doesnt solve the interaction problem in the slightest. it's not fun playing against a sniper at the moment. |
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02-13-2010, 07:40 PM | #440 | |||||||||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Inside of your Computron
Class/Position: O/D Sniper, D Engy, D Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: s^., :e0:, -=[$D$]=-, -AA-, +SUF, .20, [AH(S)]-r, [ . ]-r Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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According to some of you guys, safety shouldn't be allowed while you're still able to damage people. The SG is the mechanic that provides the most safety:damage in the game - as an engy you can be afk in spawn in perfect safety and still be killing people. So if you consider a VERY low risk:damage ratio broken (I don't, necessarily), then yes buildables are breaking an FF rule. Quote:
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A little off topic, but I'm actually going to give you guys a huge shout out. This game ROCKS - I love it (I wish it were marketed better - but the dev team has done a SUPERB job of creating the game so far). We seem to disagree on what we want the future of the game to be and obviously I don't develop the game so I can't mold it into what I want - I can only say that I think you're making a huge mistake by removing some of the characteristics of the game that don't conform to a narrow DM/mulch style of play. Quote:
In response to Sidd's post, who I appreciate trying to look at this in an unbiased way, I feel that: 1) The sniper certainly has counters on most maps. Aardvark is a crazy good sniper map. Most maps are limited to a range where soldiers (and most classes, really) have a chance of killing a sniper even at the longest distances on the map (2fort/openfire range) and spies are certainly a counter almost everywhere. 2) Your 3A solution, which you say is your favorite, is something that I can probably live with, but those classes are already at an advantage in getting past snipers. Even on aardvark decent scouts and medics get past even the best of snipers a large majority of the time. Quote:
It's not fun playing against any good players - particularly if you're playing offense and keep getting owned before you ever touch the flag. Every defensive class in the right hands can do this. Last edited by TheKing; 02-13-2010 at 09:48 PM. |
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