Sniper: Removal from CTF maps?

[KubeDawg]

People are always talking about the sniper class. It can certainly be an annoyance sometimes when you are trying your bestest to play capture the flag, however, it could also be argued that while the sniper class may not be that useful as far as defense is concerned, the sniper does has it's uses. Now, please read each poll answer carefully.

[GeoKill----->]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Now, please read each poll answer carefully.

Poll?????

But yeah I'm down for this

[Handym]

That is a dumb idea, really. I mean just because people get whiny about midmap snipers doesen't mean the class should be removed.. If snipers really become such a pain in the butt you should focus on making better maps with more alternate routes to the enemy base. That's right, I'm looking at you Aardvark!

[mixer]

last-option, nobrainer, if the sniper is good enough to attract attention from the enemy team, then he plays a vaild role to pull pressure from the inbase-def. But the current sniper is ridiculous weak that he'll never be used in any clan-game.

[squeek.]

The problem with the sniper is not that he's weak. Last I checked a 1-shot kill could never been considered a weakness. It's just that he's an annoyance and doesn't fit with the theme of the game. I'm all for molding the sniper around the game instead of having maps molded around the sniper.

[Foxtrick]

The reason why Sniper could be up for such a satisfying hanging is because majority of the time in TFC we could deal with any sniper (unless we're talking Rock2 - old skool!) via the simple grenade. Now its not possible to dismember that fellow class at all, and they are not so useless at close fight scenarios(they still aint great but theres a reason for it).

Class limits are bad unless its for a themed server. Any league that employs class limits is also cutting down the lesser informed or more inventive clans, and generally taking away some of the fun. TFC was about random situations.. random servers.. random camping etc etc etc. I think that whole tradition was what kept it going so long.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The problem with the sniper is not that he's weak. Last I checked a 1-shot kill could never been considered a weakness. It's just that he's an annoyance and doesn't fit with the theme of the game. I'm all for molding the sniper around the game instead of having maps molded around the sniper.

[Agent_W]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The problem with the sniper is not that he's weak. Last I checked a 1-shot kill could never been considered a weakness. It's just that he's an annoyance and doesn't fit with the theme of the game. I'm all for molding the sniper around the game instead of having maps molded around the sniper.

I concur.


To piggy-back on this, the sniper has always been a SUPPORT class. NO DUH that some of you are saying the sniper doesn't have much of a role. We're talking about a class that has 50 light armor and only frag nades...you can't expect a class like that to deliver a major punch to a O or D objective. But one thing remains: his armament.

The sniper serves the team best because he provides SUPPORT out in the main yard of a CTF map. Having someone watching your back out there really helps, because you can invade or defend bases a lot easier by slowing down the advance of the enemy. And if some of you are complaining about getting killed by sniper fire...TOUGHEN UP! That's the ways of war for ya. You're going to have to dodge it to survive, just like you always do in any DM situation. The sniper is a great class for CTF...and if you thought otherwise, you'd be better off playing arena DM, where snipers don't have a place LOL.



So the sniper is team-friendly if you look at it in the right perspective. I believe the main reason why clans and leagues don't use them is because they want to focus more on an "AvD" style. Snipers, in that case, don't really serve well in sieges or siege defense. And there are some maps where they really don't do so well, but those probably include the smaller, more tight-fitting maps.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by Handym

If snipers really become such a pain in the butt you should focus on making better maps with more alternate routes to the enemy base. That's right, I'm looking at you Aardvark!

you're completely missing the point. the problem with snipers is that on ctf maps they do basically sod all to help their team, but noobs don't realise this and think that if they get a shit load of kills midmap then that surely must be pwnage... this is a massive barrier that stops them developing as players, and stops them from ever really experiencing the core parts of FF's gameplay that make it so cool. so the problem isn't that the sniper is too effective atm, it's actually the exact opposite - and at the same time some newer players also find them annoying and frustrating to play against, so overall it's a complete lose/lose scenario atm. imo the answer is to revamp the class to make him into a decent longish range defence class (i.e. more effective at longer ranges than the existing def classes) that is actually a valid choice as part of an organised def, is hopefully not annoying and frustrating for newer players to play against, and that most importantly functions best as part of a team rather than as a lonegun.

i've been thinking about how to do this (while also keeping the ppl who rly like the way the sniper works atm and in tfc as happy as possible) for a v long time now, and i've finally got an idea that i rly like, so i'll talk it over with shok sometime and see what he thinks. if everyone keeps thinking about it then i'm sure we can come up with something sweet eventually.

[mervaka]

looking at the bigger picture, i think we can apply this theory of looking at what classes we should allow for each gamemode, not just snipers in CTF. i'm down with the idea though.

[Scuzzy]

I think sniper matches with the CTF mode just fine. If someone's stealing something from your base and running away, you're going to radio the gun you have on top of the building to take him out.

Mold him after "The Usual Suspects" character Michael McManus, make him a good long distance guy, get rid of the "auto rifle" and give him a semi-powerful handgun that only has a bullet range EXTREMELY close to him, after that the bullet's have no effect. A sniper should never be terribly effective in semi-close combat. He should either be very far away, or have a hand-gun to your head.

Scuzzy

[betterschindt]

snipers are weak, that one shot kill your talking about only works for medic, scout and engineer and demo

a full shot cant kill a pyro, soldier or HW after the nerf.

maybe pyro but hitboxes still suck and always registers low

anyway my pooint is, snipers arent as powerful as all the complainers whine about.
they whine because they are dieing on route to flag. and last i checked, that was the idea of a ctf map.
so if a sniper stops you, makes you respawn and try again, that gives the defense time to rebuild that sentry, or get grenade pack etc...


just because clans dont use snipers, does not mean they are not useful.
and lets not forget, public servers are for fun. and cnipers sure are fun to use. hell try using one in tf2. they are a pile of crap, impossible to control and not enough cover...

one thing about ff is they kept what made the sniper so much fun from tfc.
if they change that a lot of players will be sad.

and i am all about getting rid of the ar, and even the nailgun, just give the sniper a pistol like people are saying. one that also gives bonus headshot damage, that would be the shit!

[Pixel]

If both teams have a sniper than they are too busy killing each other to really defend.

sniper needs to be improved much, maybe not to qwtf-level, but right now hes a joke. Then make the pyro a counter-class, almost invincible against sniperbullets, and suddenly both classes have a right to exist.

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by kano

sniper needs to be improved much, maybe not to qwtf-level, but right now hes a joke. Then make the pyro a counter-class, almost invincible against sniperbullets, and suddenly both classes have a right to exist.

She swallowed the spider to catch the fly.

I'm still in favor of making the Sniper have an accurate, decent damage (super shotgun level) sniper rifle with a shorter charge time, lower overall damage, faster refire, and other bonuses for fully-charged shots. Something like stronger push, or a longer radiotag duration. Stuff that's been posted before, just combined in different ways.

[zE]

I personally at the moment have cr_sniper -1, but.. it should be a matter of server owners to decide that, cuse if u take that off sniper from all ctf maps from all the servers its gonna be a less newbie friendly game and we dont want that to hapened i think. Theres plenty of servrs around there.. its just a question of picking one that u like.. sniper on/sniper off/ no rules/clanstyle/ff on/ff off etc etc..

[myersjr]

I was gonna say, sniper is a good class. I dont like them and i dont play them, but think they add something to the game. Playing as a medic, its not as much fun if you have free run before you fly from your battlement. I dont believe for one minute that the sniper is ineffective on ctf maps. Ive known guys that could pick a person off out of the air on congestus, without being seen. Sniper definitely has a place on certain maps. Hunted being one of them. Even the classics..2 fort, Monkey, etc..dropdown..If the sniper is skilled enough, he can take out the enemies offence all by himself or at least a good portion. Of course, it depends on whether its 3vs3 or whatever. If he knows he got only 2 guys on o..He could consistently focus on one of the guys and hope that his D guarding the flag will pick up the other..he is only one player after all..Most of the time, you have 3 on d, 2 on O, am i right?? The sniper in conjunction with say a demo man and or solly, usually stalls the o team..pretty effective

[richard nixon]

Only thing I hate about the sniper is sniper wars. When I pick sniper class I want to take out SGs that may be in view or to try and shoot down and escaping flag capper and to slow down the offense if possible. But its always been like this in FF and TFC where you will constantly be distracted by the other sniper and end up in those boring sniper wars. I especially hate it in well/2fort/aardvark.

I was going to say implement a way that makes sniper wars less common so they could focus on the battlefield, but that would just make people whine more.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by betterschindt

and cnipers sure are fun to use.

Great if they are fun to use. They are the WORST to go against.

Here's my suggestion (from the beta forums):

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think allowing the sniper to move/jump while shooting and removing the damage charge and instead replacing it with a tag-length/distance charge (the longer the charge, the longer the radio tag stays on and the farther you can see the tag from) would be a step in the right direction. And get rid of the AR and replace it with something useful.

[TACO-BELL]

Originally Posted by squeek.

It's just that he's an annoyance and doesn't fit with the theme of the game.

Sorry Squeek, fact is, this is supposed to be a mod with a TF theme. Sniping is part of TF always has been. Since day 1 of this mod all you clan type people had the option of class restricting snipers to zero on your public servers. Some did-- and those servers were empty.

You should realize, that when people download FF, as a TF mod, they expect a TF theme and that includes sniper "annoying" and all. Thats because those of us who didn't whine on the keyboard about snipers but instead learned how to be sniper or deal with them, developed skills in the process and have had fun doing it. The push here with this dev group seems to be to make the most pansy sniper class seen in any TF mod ever, and for players who play sniper or anti-sniper, that flattens this game for us.

I know from in-game that some of the people in beta testing are extremist anti-snipers. How the 2.0 sniper class ever passed beta, and still has not been patched yet, just makes it look like this group will never produce a TF-worthy sniper class. Squeek's comment here just reiterates that.

The only suggestion I would make to this group is disable sniper by default on the server package, but leave in the 1.11 sniper with a method for a server admin to enable it. I'm sure someone out there will host a decent pub server with it enabled so those of us who like that aspect of TF/FF can have our fun, and the rest of the clan people don't have to get all your knickers up in a twist because of enemy snipers.