View Single Post
Old 07-20-2016, 06:29 AM   #18
FDA_Approved
Beta Tester
 
FDA_Approved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 293 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitcake View Post
Well, it's been over a month since jump gun was introduced and we've had plenty of time to test it out in pickups.
I disagree. We don't really run that many pugs, I don't think that many people playing pugs use the Jgun that often, and let's be honest, we've been scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill for a while now. No offense to anyone, but we've been converting anyone we can into a "pug player" for a while now. Even the more veteran players don't do anything to push each other competitively. (It's pretty funny watching you guys call each other scrubs, when there are people out there, some who've never even played FF, who could come in and unbalance our games by un-stackable amounts)

Now I don't really play that often, so I can't really say. But I feel like you're mostly basing opinions off of your own cheap applications of the gun, while most people haven't even been on the receiving end of it enough times to really develop the proper reactions for it.

Quote:
It increases the difficulty of airshots; airstrafing and concs already make airshots hard, but jumpgun gives scouts instantaneous airjuking.
Now, I really want you to understand where I'm coming from on my side of the argument. Seeing as how airshots are the biggest reason I play any arena shooter.

But my main reaction to that would be:

So? And?

Airshots are not some integral gameplay design. First of all, F'ing A m8, pull out your shotgun. If someone is in the air, let hitscan take care of it. (kind of like how it really should be in any airborne scenario when your main concern isn't "hit mad wicked airshots yo") Solly, engi, HW have SSG, engi has sentry, HW has AC, demo has shotty. (sure the shotty is shit, but if your demo is the last defense and he already missed his det, oh well, good bye flag, O deserves to move it)

Secondly, I still think that's another thing that comes down to reactions we haven't built up as a community. I'm sure the first time some solly missed an air in TF2 because of scout double jump, he probably thought "omg how will Airs ever be a thing when scouts can abruptly change direction in air?". But now we have frag videos where soldiers either predict/wait for the double jump, or just fire a second rocket after. If jgun is more abrupt than tf2 scouts double jump, I don't know, but I accept the challenge either way.

Quote:
Handhold conc+jumpgun indoors is insanely strong
I feel like this is BS just because you specified "indoors". The only thing Jgun has to offer concs is insane height, which doesn't come into play "indoors". Other than that, Jgun makes concs much slower than a normal conc. So the only thing Jgun-HH concs offers is, height and unpredictability. Not because the Jgun is inherently unpredictable, but because it's something new that, again, people haven't taken the time to build a reaction to.

Quote:
By making movement so easy it reduces the importance your other movement.
This is where I agree. I don't think the Jgun was meant to make "movement easy". I think it was meant to enhance movement. But given that, intentionally or coincidentally, maps are modeled around the limits of bhop, concs, and trimps/djumps, the extra push from Jgun has broken that.

It's made for very cheap scenarios. Like you said destroy bats can be a big culprit, and it doesn't even come down to lessening the importance of any current legit battlement exit. The fact that using the Jgun after any trivial amount of explosive knock back for a battlement exit is what really makes it cheap. Basically if you're higher than normal jump height, Jgun will get you out bats. And the the design of that spot means it's all over in a split second before you're safe behind cover.

It's also cheap around phantom ledges, where you had to walk around or trimp, you can now just Jgun.

Quote:
Although it was billed as an answer to HWG's overpressure
I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter". Mainly because designing something as shitty as OP, at the same time as you design some asinine counter for it seems, really really dumb. I still like to give devs the benefit of the doubt and believe the Jguns main appeal was to add more depth and options to movement, while reinforcing the idea to new players that scout was primarily a movement class. (you know, so that they might be less likely to run around shooting HW's with nails and single shotties)

Quote:
I find demos to be most affected by jumpgun. I have escaped so many pipetraps that I dead to rights should have died from because jumpgun pushed me above and out of range of pipes. It makes a huge difference in engagements with every defense class. So while the whole overpressure into jumpgun counter is kind of a neat dynamic, I think it messes with the balance of all classes way too much.
And again, as I've keyboard-drooled at you many times before, I think this comes down to nobody being pushed to adjust to new things. Here's the thing, if you Jgun before you touch flag, there's time to repipe. You can fire the gren launcher at full auto and still have time to det every pipe before the next one fires. If you Jgun away from pipes AFTER you've grabbed the flag, it means demo missed his det in the first place.

So basically, in terms of class balance I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you say. In terms of movement balance I do think it's pretty bad, because the skill curve is esentially: Useful movement tool for new comers, cheap gimmick for vets.

And Either way, I don't care if it stays or goes.

Also I don't see why OP needs to go with it. (seeing as how it's been a part of the game, independent of the Jgun for quite some time) But before OP does go the HW class needs an extremely thorough looking into. Because while 3 or 4 HW's in our community would be fine without it, the rest would be pretty crippled by its removal.
__________________
Currently equipped: Rad Scarf of liberating happiness.
FDA_Approved is offline   Reply With Quote


4 members found this post helpful.