[Fruitcake]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I disagree. We don't really run that many pugs, I don't think that many people playing pugs use the Jgun that often, and let's be honest, we've been scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill for a while now. No offense to anyone, but we've been converting anyone we can into a "pug player" for a while now. Even the more veteran players don't do anything to push each other competitively. (It's pretty funny watching you guys call each other scrubs, when there are people out there, some who've never even played FF, who could come in and unbalance our games by un-stackable amounts)

We've played over 50 games in July so far and about 100 over June. Given that's not enough time for everything to be learned, but it is time for reasonable impressions to be formed. Competitive play may not be at its peak given the declining player count, but are you suggesting we throw out all balance feedback because current pickup players aren't great enough? Let me know when the amazing players who could stack our games show up. I'd love to play with them.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I'm sure the first time some solly missed an air in TF2 because of scout double jump, he probably thought "omg how will Airs ever be a thing when scouts can abruptly change direction in air?". But now we have frag videos where soldiers either predict/wait for the double jump, or just fire a second rocket after. If jgun is more abrupt than tf2 scouts double jump, I don't know, but I accept the challenge either way.

Having played a decent amount of tf2 I can tell you this is a unfair comparison. Double jump does allow you to juke yes. In FF we have MUCH greater air strafe which you can already juke with. Jump gun is double jump juke added onto highly controllable airstrafing, so it's far worse in FF.

As a side note on airshots; I do think pulling out hitscan shotgun is the safe play. However airshots with projectiles are something I find inherently fun, and are something I don't want to discourage more than they already are.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I feel like this is BS just because you specified "indoors". The only thing Jgun has to offer concs is insane height, which doesn't come into play "indoors". Other than that, Jgun makes concs much slower than a normal conc.

I must confess, when I made this comment I was thinking chiefly of destroy. When I think about class balance I always think in terms of destroy because ff_destroy is the most well balanced well designed map in the game, in my opinion. Many ff maps have sloped ceilings, which when conced into with jumpgun force you in a particular direction. This is especially true on destroy, where the ceilings slope up on the way in, and down on the way out. I have gotten many HH+jgun concs into the ceiling that actually moved me a decent ways forwards because of sloped ceilings.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter"

It's not that I view them as a inseparable item, I just think HWG needs a nerf at the moment, as he is by far the strongest defense, and removing overpressure is the simplest nerf that comes to mind. Really overpressure and HWG balance is a separate issue from jump gun.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think the criticism that the jumpgun allows for cheap escapes is totally fair, and it's the thing I'm least happy about with it. If anyone has any ideas for how that could be corrected while still meeting some of the goals in the above link, I'm all ears.

Would it be possible to remove the vertical aspect of jump gun? As in make it purely a boost horizontally? That would stop a majority of the cheap escape applications, while still allowing overpressure countering. Turn it into a horizontal kick starter, say boost to max bhop speed on fire. It would still allow for jgun+conc jukes etc, but would remove the more annoying escape routes problem.